Mark Driscoll’s Church Discipline Contract: Looking For True Repentance at Mars Hill Church? Sign on the Dotted Line
Before he agrees to let me share his story, a narrative of events that will be split up into two separate posts–part 1 today and part 2 tomorrow, Andrew says, “I don’t want this to be something I do out of vengeance. But I believe the story needs to be told. I need some more time to think about this; I want to be sure I’m doing this for the right reasons.”
Eight days pass before I hear from him again. “I’m ready.”
The following is part 1 of Andrew’s story.
Shortly after graduating from high school (he was homeschooled), Andrew wanted a change in scenery. The then Tennessee resident says he needed a change in scenery. He needed to get away. He needed to grow up. He needed to figure out what he was going to do with the rest of his life.
So when he turned 20, Andrew moved away from his quaint life in America’s Bible belt, and he moved to Seattle, and yes, in hopes of finding himself.
Once he was settled into life in the great Northwest, Andrew took the advice of an older sibling and visited Mars Hill Church, the congregational home of Mark Driscoll
Andrew was born and raised Independent Fundamental Baptist, so not only was Andrew accustomed to Mark’s anger-laced fiery style of sermon, he had a deep appreciation for it. In the beginning, some of Mars Hill’s reformed theologies rubbed against Andrew’s Baptist roots, but Mark’s enthrallment for preaching “Jesus Christ crucified” eventually was what relieved Andrew’s doctrinal concerns, and it wasn’t long before he became a member. Soon thereafter, he was wading heart deep amid the friendly, committed Mars Hill community, becoming more and more comfortable in his born again reformed skin, guzzling the Driscollized water.
According to Andrew, joining Mars Hill was a good move for him. While he didn’t agree with every theological declaration that came out Mark Driscoll
Toward the beginning of 2011, Andrew met and eventually began dating the daughter of a church elder at Mars Hill. The two fell in love quickly. Last fall, they were engaged to be married.
But shortly after becoming engaged, Andrew made a costly choice, one that involved hanging out alone with a female friend he knew from the community college he attended. Andrew and his college friend messed around. They didn’t have sex. But they got close. But what they did and didn’t do isn’t the issue. He cheated on the woman he was planning to marry. On the following morning, Andrew felt devastated, his brain flashing memories of what he’d done the night before, his heart full of shame, guilt, and hindsight’s remorse.
That evening, Andrew met his fiancee at community group. As soon as she saw his face, she knew something was wrong. After the meeting was finished, they walked outside to his car (he was planning to give her a ride home). A long hard conversation ensued, but at some point in the middle, Andrew confessed.
For obvious reasons, she was devastated, lost. They parted ways: She returned inside and he got in his car sped off. But again, his conscience screamed: You can’t run away from this. So as he turned around, he called one of the small group members and asked, “Can we talk?” He agreed, and when Andrew pulled back into the driveway of house where his community group meets, he confessed to his friend (and fellow community group member) what he’d done the night before.
As so often is the case with church drama like this, the following month was, for Andrew, filled up with meetings. A meeting with his old community group leader (he was forced to join a new community group). A meeting with his new community group leader. A meeting with his fiancée’s step-father. A meeting with his trusted friend who also happened to be the leader of his mens small group. So many meetings. And some of those meetings required second meetings.
Over the course of that month, Andrew also confessed more of his sexual baggage/history.
“I confessed to my mens small group leader–a close friend of mine–that my relationship with my fiancée was physical, too.”
That confession led to more meetings and more than enough long (and sometimes ridiculous) text message conversations with church leadership at Mars Hill.
“On several occasions, I was called a Wolf,” says Andrew, “which at Mars Hill, is like the worst thing you can be called.”
I ask him why.
“Because it means you’re a man who preys on innocent people–nothing more than a predator.”
According to Andrew, at Mars Hill, the cliche “it takes two to tango” isn’t true. Why? Because Pastor Mark teaches that women are “weaker vessels,” and therefore, when a girl and boy engage in consensual sexual activity, it is always assumed that it’s the man’s fault because he failed to lead the woman (or “weaker vessel”) toward righteousness. (And everybody knows that women can’t find righteousness unless a man leads her there. Ugh.)
“I don’t want people to feel sorry for me. I take responsibility for my actions. I messed up. But that doesn’t make me into a predator.”
At this point, despite all of the meetings, conversations, and tear-inducing confessionals that Andrew has engaged (some by choice, some not by choice), Andrew is not under “church discipline”. Nobody has even mentioned it to him as a possibility. That is, until he begins pushing back.
“After a month of trying to jump through all of their hoops, I’ll admit, I started questioning whether or not Mars Hill was the right church for me.” He admits this isn’t the first he had those thoughts. For a year or so, Andrew had questioned the many of the ideas/values of Mars Hill.
The week before Christmas, Andrew’s community group leader sent him another text message: What’s your schedule like on Wednesday? Another meeting was to be planned, this time with one of Mars Hills family/counseling pastors as well as Andrew’s new community group leader.
Andrew admits that, by this time, he was exhausted. The thought of one more meeting overwhelmed his already very full brain. “But I took some time to pray, and decided that I needed to meet with them and hear what they had to say.”
On the evening of December 18, Andrew met with the pastor and small group leader. It was during this meeting that Andrew first learned that he was being “brought under church discipline.” Despite it feeling like he’d been going through church discipline for a little more than a month, he didn’t say much. He did a lot of listening.
And his ears listened, his eyes began opening, too. For a couple weeks, amid all of the various conversations/meetings/confession sessions, Andrew had noticed what he believed was a strange shift in how people were treating him.
The things he noticed weren’t exactly subtle differences either. There was something about their tones, a certain change from being serious and kind toward him to always coming across intentionally serious and sometimes harsh. He’d also noticed a difference in the words they used, a switch from words and phrases that depicted gentle care and concern to words/phrases that sometimes caused him to feel like a criminal on trial, certainly not a longtime member of a loving, forgiving church environment.
But now. During that meeting. All of the things he noticed. The tones. The words. The differences. They were definitely not his imagination.
Andrew sat in that meeting wondering, questioning whether he could/should trust the two men sitting in front of him. The two men that he was supposed to trust, that he was supposed to deeply respect.
But something made him doubt that.
Something in his spirit told him not to trust them. Something caused him to believe that the men sitting in front of him were far less interested in restoring him than they were in having control, feeling powerful, throwing their spiritual weight around. Beating down a sinner like Andrew.
Andrew says that many of Mars Hill’s men feel beaten down. “Because that’s what happens there, especially when you question a pastor. You get beaten down. Until you submit.”
Andrew began tried shaking the negative thoughts that overwhelmed his brain, Pastor X looked at Andrew and said, “I’ll write up a church discipline contract and send it over to you in a few days.”
What did he just say? Something about contract? Did he just say that he was going to be sending me a church discipline contract?
A few days later, Andrew received an email from Pastor X. In the subject line was the word “contract”.
Andrew- Here is a copy of your discipline contract. Please read it over and let me know if you have questions. Blessings. -Pastor X
Andrew opened the attachment. Justified to the left, right next to the Mars Hill “M” logo were the words “Mars Hill Church Church Discipline Contract”.
Sure enough. It was a contract. A list of Andrew’s sins. And a list of all the hoops that Andrew needed to jump through. But why? To prove his repentance. To prove he’s worthy of God’s forgiveness. To prove he’s worth of the fellowship of Mars Hill…
Here’s the contract that Andrew received.
Everybody knows how much Mark Driscoll loves disciplining church people.
In fact, members of Mars Hill practically sign up for church spankings when they become members.
But what is church discipline in 2012 really about? Seriously. Why would anybody subject themselves to the antics of somebody like Mark or somebody working under somebody like Mark?
Would you sign a church discipline contract?
Is this how “church discipline” is supposed to work? While I know that many Bible verses speak about “church discipline,” do any of them recommend a contractual agreement? Is “true repentance” accomplished with a list of sins and a contractual to-do list?
So again, if you were in Andrew’s shoes, just a regular 25-year-old guy who messed up but yet repeatedly repented of his sins, would YOU sign this contract?
Would YOU put your trust in the church’s system for repentance?
Does your answer change when the pastor in charge of that system is Mark Driscoll?
Find out how Andrew answered that question on Wednesday.
TO BE CONTINUED.
Until then. How about that church discipline?
PART TWO: The Gospel Shame According to Mark Driscoll
ALSO READ: Spiritual Abuse Must Stop
A RESPONSE FROM MARS HILL CHURCH
Matthew Paul Turner’s book Churched for free
**Comments have been closed on this post
To be honest, if someone is a leader in a church and has fallen into sexual immorality with others in the community that can be very devastating. This looks to me as a good way to be held accountability while trying to overcome this. Jesus said we should hold others accountable and help them. This looks like putting in to practice a discipline to help someone overcome a battle with temptation.
Agreed. There is a big different between confession and repentance. Anyone can confess sin, but repenting from sin means changing your ways. Labeling the changes listed in the contract as a list of to-do’s is a bit of a stretch. It seems pretty clear to me they are looking for outward signs of that inward change (repentance) while seeking to protect him from tempting situations.
It’s clear from MPT’s choice of inflammatory words to write this “article” that he’s not as interested in Andrew, repentance, or accountability as he is in a personal vendetta against Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church. It’s a bit twisted to use one person to “get at” another. Talk about feeling powerful… Extreme bias like this is not helpful, no matter what the situation was.
Fact of the matter is those documents exist and they are wielded as a contract with god. It’s an abuse of power from people under a cloak of a family and community. I’ve never had a loved one approach me and make me admit everything I’ve done wrong to obtain their forgiveness. Being able to admit what you did was wrong and search for forgiveness is repentance.
I agree that everything contains bias and this is no exception; but with this information there is a critical breakdown in how we function as a community designed to support each other. Love and community come from trust and a relationship, be it with god or not.
Maybe it’s not about obtaining forgiveness by making someone tell you all their dirty dark secrets. Maybe it’s about being able to trust the person as a leader again? To restore their reputation with yourself and other leaders, about being able to understand their stumbling blocks and not put them in their way?
I did feel that – ‘He was dating/courting the woman under false pretense’ was a bit harsh however, he wasn’t dating the girl under false pretense, he clearly loved her, otherwise he wouldn’t have confessed to her – he just made a mistake, a big one, yes, one that deserves an engagement to be called off, definitely, but a mistake none the less. He didn’t propose to her to get into her pants….well…..we all do…but not in the way or context that sentence makes it sound.
If he had a past history that he was hiding from her (or even lying to her about), then he was dating her under false pretense, no?
MPT just chose not to stress that issue, because it wouldn’t have fit in with his “Mark Driscoll is the worst person, like, ever” position
tripp. that letter trumps everything you can say to try and redeem mark on this one, friend. but nice try though. :)
And Mark isn’t the worst person ever. But he’s not a good person who works for the kingdom of God, Tripp.
You really have no idea of the Grace of God do you. We are all sinners but it is God and God alone that will punish us for those sins. Yes he needs to face the consequences of his actions, but he has done so. More than any other normal person would. Forgiveness is for God alone to give us. With Jesus dying on the cross he took those sins and made them his own in order for us to be able to repent for them.
What rubbish Claudizzle and would love to get the correct verses for your dribble
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Seriously? You’re on a Christian blog and you’re asking for proof of basic Christian doctrines? If I didnt’ know better, I’d swear you were trying to start something. If you’re a non-Christian reader “going undercover” (which I strongly suspect), you could at least have the basic decency to not jump down everyone’s throats!
Also, the word is “drivel,” not “dribble.” There were no basketballs involved in Claudizzle’s statment. ;)
This is so terrifying to me that you and others see this as actually ok. You do realize that sexual promiscuity is one of the most common behaviors of young men and women and accountability that involved genuine, heartfelt repentance with accountability with those you *choose* – in *relationships*, not “meetings – is how we heal from what we’re in bondage in, right?
I’m sick to my stomach with those of you who are agreeing to this.
Or maybe we should redefine sexual immorality?
To what? Something less biblical and more in line to what you believe?
Considering that most people were engaged at or before puberty during Biblical times, I don’t think a strict Biblical guideline works anymore. In those days, a woman was considered to be her husband’s property, rather than a human being. There is a HUGE difference between “I choose to submit to a Christian husband because I believe it is the right and Godly thing to do” and “I am my father’s property, soon to become my husband’s, and I have absolutely no say in the matter.”
A non-virgin bride, in Biblical times, was stoned, because by puberty, she’d already been signed over to her husband. She was considered her husband’s property, held in trust by her father, until the wedding day when she would move in with her husband. If you don’t know the historical and cultural background during which certain verses were written, you can’t really understand what the Bible is trying to say.
And this is why I left Christianity.
..or rather this version of it. Love=freedom. Control=bondage. God help us all.
I’m all for accountability, but this is extreme. As an ex-pastor, from my account, the concern for liability is usually the governing filter when it comes to matters like this. Grace and recovery is rarely the filter. Ironically, I used to be mildly a fan of MD…but the more this man opened his mouth, the more flagrantly obscene his comments were. This, however is not something that is new to just the Acts 29 plants…but has been around (at least informally) for a while. It is the reason I am not a “member” of a church institution today. The governing structure is broken.
(Disclaimer: I love God and my neighbors and am earnestly seeking truth)
Well said.
The church will always be broken because it is full of broken people. However, the bible still seems to be clearly stating that we are to be a part of the church body.
Hi Noelle: Your comment, while containing some truth, strikes me as an easy answer, or an outright cop out. The church is filled with broken people who are, at least according to scripture, supposed to carry within them “streams of living water” and “abundant life”. I think that a truer statement is that the church is filled with and driven by the very culture that it claims to stand against–with our business models of Christian growth, Charismatic super-stardom, or knee-jerk Pharisaical justice lording over grace and mercy, we are too much like the world we say we abhor.
Thank you, Matt. So true.
Well Mr. Harding. Bravo.
You people are a bit confused about “the bible” and “the church”. What we today call the new testament was written by politically motivated followers of “peter’s church”. by political I mean they were trying to consolidate various factions under one church. this is why the 4 main evangalists that contributed have differing accounts of real historical events…they were trying to appeal to different factions.
So, to be within the evangelical or born again community and talk about “the bible” and “the church” is very misguided as what is meant by the intersection of those two is “The Church in Rome”.
You’ve all decided to create your own institutions with your own rules. Looking to a book meant to promote “peter’s church” for admonishing or encouraging people is very misguided.
For me, I’m for the commentor above who suggests we redefine sexual immorality. The only thing Andrew may have done that is immoral is to go so far with his friend while being engaged to someone else.
This atheist can see that is immoral (our word for sin) quite plainly. But I can also see he stopped it and then told his fiance. Her and the church’s childish reaction to his honesty and it seems ultimately fidelity is the immoral part of this story. Clearly they care more about appearances of morality whilst controlling others lives than true human morality.
This is why it is clear religion is a scam. Its a scam for other reasons but this type of story proves it. Get yourselves some help and move on to a real, morally driven, life, like most of us atheists have done. 99.9% of criminals are christian while only a little more than half of the population is. Very telling.
Dave,
Interesting subject of moralism. The problem with moralism is the very definition of what is moral. 100 years ago, moralistic values looked very different than today’s. Therefore, if your hope is living a good, moral life, then you’re putting your hope in a very temporary thing. When you’re 75, assuming you are years from being that old, the world will look very differently and the world will view that as ok. Yet, your morals will likely be broken. Why? Because you deemed, at your current age, that your current morals are okay and to be followed by the masses.
On the other hand, God gave us commandments to follow, followed by a Savior in Jesus who will save us from our own failures to follow his commandments. It isn’t about being good. It isn’t about feeling good about yourself. It isn’t about following a set of morals. It is about striving to know God, love him, and as an outpouring of that love to follow his commandments. If we love people because it is what is morally recommended, we’ve missed the point. rather, we love people because God loves us, as messed up as we are.
I hope you reconsider your hope in what is called moralistic deism. I’d hate for you to follow this belief and it fail you after someone finally has a different set of morals and wants you to follow them. Morals in Europe, Africa, South Africa and other areas of the world look entirely different. Biblical values, on the other hand, are cross-cultural, reach the masses and can be followed by anyone who calls on the name of Jesus.
I disagree that morals are completely different between cultures. Most core morals are consistent between cultures, which points to the common source of those morals: God. This is the argument of writers like Thomas Aquinas who advocate for natural law theory and I think you can see the roots of that theory in Paul’s writings. Truth is truth, and looking for it earnestly will lead you back to God, if he exists.
The ancient Greeks burned their bodies on a pyre, and considered this the right and proper way to show respect for the dead. When their traders made contact with nations to the east, who showed respect for the dead through ritual cannibalism, each thought the other’s ways abhorrent.
So which are you identifying as the “core moral” in such a situation: respecting the dead, or the means of disposal/interrment of the body.
Oh boy. What a load of crap. So-called “biblical values” certainly aren’t timeless or cross-cultural. They are Jewish values of 1800-2000 years ago. Much of it has no relevance today. Much of it has been superseded by humanistic ideals. That’s just conveniently ignored by Christians.
Of course values change. That’s a GOOD thing. Mankind’s values today are overall certainly better than they were 200 years ago. Or even 100. The point is that people don’t decide what is moral on their own. Society does and it eventually reaches a consensus on things. Humanism allows for these discussions and thus allows for improvements. Religions only offer stagnancy
Dave W., I like your take on this. Although I do consider myself a Christian, I think your points are correct. The immoral acts here are being committed by the church. Not the person who is confessing and trying to make things right. I’m drawn to the Catholics of late because you get forgiveness. Period. It’s over. Maybe some penance–but whatever it is you confess, the priest has the power to forgive. Consequences are the natural ones of your own action, not contrived by a vindictive pastor. Thank you, God! :)
My only quibble, David, is that is wasn’t Peter’s church. It was Paul’s church. Christianity is based on the teachings of Paul who eclipsed Peter and the other Apostles in influence.
Other than that, I agree completely.
Really? Interesting that the early Church didn’t think so!
Which early Church? The Pauline/Roman Catholic church? The Manicheans? The Donatists? The Gnostics? The Copts? The Adamites? ;)
Paul’s church, technically. There’s not much evidence that the Pauline branch of early Christianity (ancestor of all Christian denominations today) and the Petrine branch (exact doctrines and dogmas unknown) were the same thing.
BTW, 75% is three-quarters, not “a little more than half.” This Wiccan thinks you’re reaching overmuch.
When one is on a religious blog, one has a duty to be at least somewhat POLITE to the author and commentors on that blog. You are making us non-Christians look bad with your diatribes. Cut it out.
yep, not an Acts 29 fan here either. This kind of thinking has been around church structures for way too long. Its polar opposite to the Gospel of Jesus and more in line with Islam.
Amen
You must be joking. If you believe this, then you must believe that the entire church (or at least male population) should also sign this contract and then fulfill it. Why? Because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is not a man or pastor their who has not looked at a woman lustfully, which the Bible clearly states is every bit the violation of God’s Law that engaging a woman wrongfully is. So if everyone is bound by this, then who is left to administer correction? Oh right, that would be God and God alone. This should no longer be a church issue as he has confessed his sins and, through his endurance of their treatment, demonstrated repentance. This should have been between him and God and nobody else before it got to a contract.
Quite right, Jarrod.
Yeah, what he said! (Jarrod that is)
Amen, J!
Grace, grace, grace, grace. Its all about GRACE!!! I would not sign this is not accountability. Jesus said be accountable to HIM. My sins are between me and my God. That is why I do not practice the Catholic faith because I do not believe that God requires me confess my sins to a priest, pastor or an elder. I am Lutheran I love that I get to do a corporate confession with my fellow sinners as part of my worship service. I get time to pray about my own personal sins and gives me time to reflect on my actions from the past week and how will be changed at this worship to do better in the upcoming week.
You Lutherans make a good case. Grace, yes!
I agree. This contract seems like a practical step.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree. This whole discipline contract makes me sick. Jesus dies on the cross for our sins and when we repent he casts them out. It is not the job of any of these men to make this poor guy feel like a “wolf” when Im sure they aren’t squeaky clean themselves. God will judge us all accordingly and the sooner this guy gets out of this church the better. Life is too short to waste your life pleasing the church instead of just pleasing God.
Read it, and I don’t see what is bad about it to be honest. They’re concerned about protecting their flock and while wolf is a strong term, the truth of the matter is he may (I repeat, may) have not repented when you consider the fact that he left the church.
I’m curious to know what his “push back” was.
A contract is more about integrity, accountability and accepting a lovingly provided and guided plan of repentance and restoration. The things listed in there really aren’t bad at all and here’s why (in order of the points listed in the contract).
- Be in community, being alone and lacking gospel centered, Jesus glorifying, Jesus pointing, Jesus convicting, Jesus sanctifying community and relationships makes you a lone target to get shot at by the devil. We are not intended to be alone.
- You shouldn’t serve if you’re in a place of disqualifying sin until you are restored. They do not want unbelievers serving there, (this is an open handed issue and some churches may differ) and they believe that someone in a form of leadership/service represents the church and are subject to a higher standard. Would you want a guy who is sleeping with a bunch of girls in the church serving others communion?
- He shouldn’t date right now because he should focus on overcoming his sinful ways by putting off the old self and putting on the new self by the grace of God through Jesus and the love of community. After he is restored he would definitely be able to date again.
- He needs to write out his history as a way of seeing his own sin and how many people he has harmed through his sinful acts. This brings about conviction through the Holy Spirit and repentance with the intent of being restored.
- He needs to write out what he has specifically done with his fiance. I don’t know who the pastor is, but perhaps its her father who is the protector of his daughter. He has not only sinned against his fiance, but also to her father. This is to bring about conviction and repentance for the intent of restoration.
- Another situation of conviction, confession, repentance. All good things.
I honestly don’t see what is wrong with any of this other than an unwillingness to embrace loving rebuke, conviction, confession and repentance. It sucks and is exhausting to look at one’s own sin, but Jesus endured all that on the cross. That is why we all need Jesus because we’re terrible people in need of a Savior.
Obviously an article will sensationalize things and give it a certain spin as well. When you point it in that direction, when you read things that are one way, it’s easy to read it another way and see it as bad when in reality it’s been presented in a way that gives you “ugh, that’s ridiculous” glasses to see it through.
Also, the reason why there was a lot of harshness in terms of him leaving and saying he’s left in a bad standing is because he AGREED TO CHURCH DISCIPLINE when he became a member. That is their obligation to him as he agreed to it and it is their way of loving them.
Sure, he can receive help from other churches, but he’s a member at MH. It’s also easy to hide your crap from other churches when you come there.
Everything read in the letter to the church was biblical and encouraged being loving towards Andrew. Just because it sucks and whatever doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Seriously, read it again as something said out of love. It’s oozing with it and encourages people to be loving instead of gossiping and being mean/evil towards him.
It’s also not cultish. Most people don’t know how to deal with situations like this and MH is very practical, so they give them practical examples and tips.
Anyone who actually goes to the church and is involved in community groups knows that there’s a tough but tender way of dealing with things. When someone is in sin, we’re tough on them in love. If we didn’t call them out, if we didn’t point to Jesus, if we just crossed them off the list of our church and move on, we wouldn’t be loving them. If we actually cared about someone, we wouldn’t just cross them off a list like a number. Instead, we would look at them as a child of God who needs to be held accountable with the hope that he is restored.
This article is just an agenda against Mark Driscoll who, granted, does get himself in a lot of trouble for what he says. Most of the flack he gets is over things that are out of context and also out of context of being a member of the church where there is another key part to the message preached, the community groups.
I can’t help but think this is all silly when tons of people are coming to Jesus, tons are being baptized, tons are becoming more like Jesus, and tons are glorifying Jesus…
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Also MH did not publicize his sins or the letter. It was suppose to be between him and the pastors and counselors. He chose to publicize it. For what good purspose? Definitely not for the glory of God. I agree, without the foundation of Jesus and the bible, this looks horrifying. That is why MH does not put these conditions to just anyone. They don’t even require this from their congregation. Just members. And Andrew chose to be a member. There is 2 sides of everything and it seems to me that Andrew is being very selfish here, using this against MH out of bitterness. If he was a true christian, and just did not agree with MH, then he has the choice and freedom to walk away. Clearly there is more to the story then just Andrew’s side.
Jesus simply said to the prostitute: “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more”. Sounds like you and these leaders think you are above the forgiveness Jesus gave. You pick a few verses to justify your actions that simply divert attention from whatever it is you don’t want other people to know about you. This is human nature, but it is not life lived by the Spirit. This is the same religious crap that Jesus spoke against.
I don’t think it’s fair for another fallible human being to decide when you are “redeemed”–I thought that was supposed to be God’s job?
There’s something extremely sinister about “You cannot date any woman–even an innocent, casual dinner date–until WE think you’re better.”
I don’t think Andrew’s deception of his financee (which is basically what makes cheating wrong–you’re being dishonest to both mistress and SO about your intentions and situation, or they probably wouldn’t have sex with you in the first place) is a Bad Thing, but that doesn’t mean he needs other people telling him what he can and cannot do for an indefinite period of time. What if Driscoll chooses to decide that such a man is NEVER reformed? Is someone supposed to remain, not only celibate, but as far from women as possible for the rest of his life? (Any time you’re alone with a woman for even 2 seconds is going to be under scrutiny in this sort of situation, whether you have romance in mind or not.)
I hope this being revealed will be an eye opener on how wrong this church is doing “Christlike unconditional Love”
I agree. It is statements/actions like this that make Christians look like horrible people. I have grown up in a Christian atmosphere (and I faithfully follow God based on my own decisions, not because I grew up that way)…. but forcing someone to sign a contract like this, and openly admit to everyone on the planet that you sinned.. way extreme! We are all sinners, and there are a lot of people who sin in this manner, but I would never expect them to “repent” in this way. Asking God’s forgiveness for your sins and then doing your best to not let that temptation overcome you again is what we are supposed to do. God knows that we will sin; we sin by doing the same things over and over again… and He knows that. He still loves us, and he continues to forgive us. Unconditional love.
Agreed, I think that what is happening here is that Mars-Hill has developed a ministry culture that is entirely limited to the knowledge of right and wrong. The power in the new covenant is what we should be ministering, and in that, the law gets written on our hearts and minds, our very beings get transformed to love that which is good and holy. This is the work of the Spirit. Ministering the Spirit and sewing to the Spirit our new natures should be the focus. There is no use chastising the flesh if you are not causing the Spirit and new nature to grow.
The kind of ministry shown here with Andrew falls so short of ministering the new covenant. It seeks to chastise the flesh and is powerless to cause the Spirit to grow in him or to cause his new nature to grow. We will see more and more and more of this until the church realises that the gospel is not about knowing about God and knowing what is right and wrong, its about experiencing and knowing God, being transformed by Him so that we are changed to love what is right over that which is wrong. We have to start ministering more than the knowledge of right and wrong.
“No longer shall one say to the other, “know God”, for they shall all KNOW me, from the least to greatest of them” thats not know about me, thats know me.
If you don’t know God, you can’t represent him, you can only teach what you know about Him.
There is a difference between unconditional love and not holding people accountable, Jesus himself on many occasions openly rebuked people, and the things He asked for were no less compelling….”go forth and sin no more”
True. But at the same time, before the contract was signed, Andrew confessed his wrongdoing to both his fiancee AND the church leaders, opening himself to possible ridicule. It’s hard to admit to doing something like this, especially with the stigmas our society places on sexual impropriety in particular. His fiancee, presumably, left him. He was told to go to meetings, and he did. That ALONE sounds like accountability to me.
Creating a draconian contract and setting up the fallible, human church leaders to decide when he was reformed enough goes well beyond that. The very story you’re referring to didn’t say “I’ll quit condemning you when you’ve proven to me beyond a shadow of a doubt you’ve cleaned up your act.” Jesus said, “Are there none left to condemn you? Then neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.” In other words, “I forgive you. Now go live your life, and don’t screw up again.”
Andrew cheated on his fiancee ONCE, and did not progress to actual vaginal intercourse. He confessed very soon after the fact. This is a different situation than someone who engages in a lengthy affair and waits years before telling his wife. I can’t see any evidence that Mars Hill understands that difference. I could see this sort of thing if Andrew cheated AGAIN after the first time, but you don’t have someone write out a contract after a first-time offense. Note how differently Jesus treated the first-time adultress (in 1st-century Jewish society, an unfaithful woman didn’t LIVE to commit a second offense) from his treatment of long-time swindlers like Zacchaeus.
So it would be loving for them to let him off with a slap on the wrist? Just because it is tough doesn’t mean it’s unloving. Jesus said a lot of harsh things that were rooted in nothing but love.
No. Mars Hill’s actions, while rooted in (what they would call) “love,” are anything but loving.
“Loving” connotes positive things: affection, caring, tender, etc. You can see it acting in this sentence (from Merriam-Webster): “They were a loving family, supporting each other when times were bad.” A loving family does not command that a single family member can no longer have contact with the rest of the family; disowning is fundamentally unloving.
Moreover, on the command to excommunicate a church member who is unrepentant: I agree, it’s a command in Scripture. Nevertheless, Andrew went through a solid month of meetings with MH pastors and staff and, so far as we can tell from this article, stopped being physical with his fiancée. Thus, he met the requirements for repentance pretty early on; he 1) stopped his action, 2) confessed it to those to whom it mattered, and 3) stopped doing it.
Jesus said those things- he was perfect. MD is not perfect- not by a long shot- who is making him jump through his repentance hoops? Jesus asked leaders to be servants- not lords.
As far as a slap on the wrist- it sounds like this guy went through a month of hell. I think he would have rather been beat with a cane.
Whatever Andrew did is between him and his fiancee. The church doesn’t have anything to do with it. Not the priests and least of all the entire congregation
There is a slap on the wrist. There is an appropriate level of punishment. And then, waaaaaay down on the spectrum of increasing severity, there is what Mars Hill did. It is possible to be TOO harsh.
you dont know love is so we have no referace point
A really similar thing happened to me at a church that’s part of the Acts 29 network. It was 3 years ago and I’m only now beginning to want to trust and be vulnerable in a community of faith. It just isn’t grace.
I was part of an Acts 29 church as well and am so glad I left. It was a really unhealthy place for me. Glad you have found a safe community now!
I don’t really see much of an issue with this type of discipline contract. Andrew was living in secret sin and he and others affected need healing. The point of the contract, at least in my neck of the woods, is commitment and accountability. It has nothing to do with control or throwing one’s spiritual weight around. It makes perfect sense that he would initially react negatively to such a notion. Many in his situation do. NOW THEN, I don’t really know how the likes of the Driscollites carry this out, but I can assure you, where I’m from we don’t treat people like criminals. Recognizing one’s mistakes and confronting them is a vital step in the healing process, but people aren’t demonized.
But really? Do they draw up discipline contracts for people who emotionally toss around others like a plastic bag in the wind? Because it sounds like exactly what this young man incurred. It’s not a church’s place to discipline, it’s to disciple. Very different things…
Sure it is. Unless I’m mistaken, churches disciplining members of their community was not uncommon in the early church. Part of discipling will generally include discipline. Our discipline doesn’t look like the world’s, but it is discipline nonetheless. And yes, if someone comes clean and decides they want real change it is a pretty involved effort and some pretty drastic measures may be taken to protect both them and others. We don’t necessarily draw up a contract to be signed, but I do like the idea. We probably don’t because it would likely be worthless in the grand scheme of things. We don’t view people as “wolves” needing correction, but as hurt people that need healing (hurt people hurt people) through tender love and grace and, at times, stern disciplinary action. Nothing can be forced on them, however, they must agree to it. If they don’t, they are free to go.
For the record, I don’t care much for Mark Driscoll much either.
Amen
There is something totally wrong with this. The point of church discipline is to restore, not to be punitive. Totally ironic (some would say hypocritical) that in Driscoll’s newly released “marriage” book, it comes out that he and his wife were sexually involved prior to being married. Going to take a wild guess here that he wasn’t ever disciplined for that, in any way close to resembling what this Andew guy has been put through. Sorry, but Driscoll and Acts 29 have become a club that’s all about authoritarian control over people, as opposed to helping people grow closer to Christ.
Based on the story Andrew has told so far, the contract is wrong, though. He was dating his fiance under false pretenses? Please. They were two perfectly normal young people in love who got a little more physical than Mars Hill says they should have.
If he signs this thing he’s not allowed to date? At all? Please.
I was raised a Christian. My husband is a pastor. If someone presented me with something like this, I would ball it up, throw it back at them and walk out.
This is insulting, unforgiving, completely lacking in grace, and all about power and control.
I might keep my sin a secret longer too if I thought this would be the reaction. This reaction doesn’t lead people to repentance the way a kind, loving leader does.
Indeed, it is “God’s kindness that leads us to repentance,” not man’s iron fist. Not to oversimplify, but that IS Scripture.
Hi Zack: I developed a saying at a Gothardite (very 70′s/80′s) church I used to attend: accountability without relationship is just another form of slavery. Andrew had confessed and the confession seemed to be genuine. What appears to be lacking in the narrative is a strong, personal relationship with people in leadership, one that would facilitate restoration. To be forever required to tick off boxes and jump through hoops would appear to indicate that real relational fellowship is absent, or sorely lacking.
Well said, Matthew.
I couldn’t agree more, Matt. But that doesn’t mean that accountability and discipline should be tossed out the window. And I don’t see the lack of relationship that you do in this. Maybe I’m wrong. I’d sure like to hear the other side of the story. Blessings.
I’ve done bad things in the past. I can remember a long childhood of pointless quarrels with siblings, going places I’d been told not to go, saying things that weren’t at all nice, etc. Everybody has committed AT LEAST those little, childhood infractions. But if, as so many churches insist, “sin is sin,” and no one sin is greater than another, then by quarreling with my brother, I have committed equally as grave an offense as Andrew’s infidelity. As fallible human beings with similar sings on their records, I would say that the Mars Hill staff went over the line when they started bringing contracts into the situation, thus implying that they were gods to whom Andrew was accountable, instead of equally-fallible mortal men.
It sounds like the person in question came forward, repented, made an effort to cease the sin, and dealt with a good month of discipline from the church already. This “contract” seems like a way of adding insult to injury. It’s like saying “you’ve been through a month of hell with us, but now we’re really going to make you miserable.” Accountability is a good thing, but people are not going to want to be held accountable and come forward if they are going to be shamed like this.
Great point, Zack.
After seeing the “HOW DARE YOU~!” video, there is no way in hell I would put myself under that kind of discipline. Further, what’s the purpose of writing out what’s already been confessed? Seems like they’re keeping a record of wrongs, so to speak.
Unfortunately, I have a similar story…sans the contract – thankfully. But the meetings….oh, were there meetings! One thing I can say now, 10 years later, is that it all taught me to offer grace where needed, and not judgement.
Hi LeAnn
I am trying to create a resource for those questioning Mars Hill and those who have been hurt by this ministry.
Would you consider sharing your story?
How bout those who have been helped by this ministry? as there are different churches and different doctrines all over, we must remember that some types of ministry are best for some and not others. I have attended Mars Hill for about a year, i have gone back and listened to many sermons, and am involved in a community group. All I have seen so far has been a help and beneficial. I believe God is moving in this church and is helping a lot of people.
It takes repellently sanctimonious Christians like Mark Driscoll to steer sensible people away from religion.
These Christians are the reason why “none” is the fastest growing religious affiliation in North America.
Unfortunately, hundreds of people are hurt in the process. Some severely. So, yeah, it’s a great thing that American Christianity has finally become too crazy. But the price is way too high
I’m sorry, Robert, but if it walks like a cult, and talks like a cult, it’s a cult. It took me 30 years to recognize that churches like MH are wolves in sheep’s clothing.
It’s ironic that MH uses the term “wolf” to describe predatory behavior.
As for Andrew – May God bless him, keep him, and give him peace in the wake of what was an example of personal integrity that we all should respect.
Well, there are two sides to every story. I could probably take up a thousand pages listing the times when I have done something wrong and become angry at the people correcting me. This disciplinary contract actually looks awesome. I wish that more churches cared about the discipline/correction of its family, like MH does. Id sign it.
My thoughts exactly.
Interesting to me that you say, “I wish that more churches cared about the discipline/correction of its family”, and yet make NO mention of restoration. The ENTIRE point is restoration, and in my experience (and the experience of Pastor Baker in “Beyond Forgiveness”), the desired goal of the process is often neglected in the rush to correct/discipline, and somehow the church just never gets around to it.
I have signed a similar contract before with an institutional church. My experience is that I kept my part o fthe contract but the church did not keep theirs. So how do you enforce that sort of shortcoming? If it is not enforceable,what good is a contract? Besides which, this contract is a witch hunt for anything that ever was done, and not very specific to the failure.
Agreed. My ONLY issue, based solely on the story presented above, is it sounds like things were made far more public or involved more people than it needed to. But if the accountability is only being overseen by one Elder or by a “Men’s accountability group” setting, this does not seem unhealthy to me.
This reminds me uncomfortably of my undergraduate university, contract and all. It always seemed to me that this kind of church discipline and constantly meeting with everyone and their mom was just gossip disguised as Christian care.
YES. Exactly.
It’s really about control. Controlling people’s sex live is a sure way to control people. They know that people will continue to “sin” and only they can offer the “cure”. So they “cure” them knowing for sure that they will be back soon enough. Making everything public is just another way of shaming people and destroying their self confidence. It has nothing whatsoever to do with actually helping them.
My issue was just what it said….why would he have to sign a list of sins that he had already repented and been forgiven for? What about the forgiveness and casting away of sins…as far as the East is from the West? There is nowhere in the Bible that Jesus made someone attend meetings, counseling sessions, and then sign a contract with all sins listed for many others to see and approve or sign. And where do they keep the signed contracts? Is there a special file cabinet with all the congregational sins in it? How do they know that the janitor doesn’t go in there and thumb through them on his break, for fun?
It doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t feel Christlike.
That’s what I was wondering. Why does he have to re-repent? Ridiculous.
Would you let someone who had embezzled money run your business? Trust takes time to build, working towards restoration after repentance sometimes means agreeing to take out the possibility of a situation happening again until that trust is built.
The man did not ‘embezzle’ – it was more like he took from work a pen and pad of paper to use on a personal project, thot better of it and brought it back. Then was treated as if he had embezzled $100,000. It appears he got tempted [Jesus was tempted ] listened to his conscience & got out of a tough situation. There is a difference between requiring perfect behaviour at all times [ALL have sinned & fall short of Gods glory] and using ones recognized mistakes & errors to improve. When Jesus was asked to cast the first stone at an adulteress, he refused, forgave her. He [& she] who is WITHOUT sin are the only ones worthy of giving this sort of ‘discipline’ – and as far as I know there was only one such without sin….. What goes around, comes around. This pastor is setting himself up for having all his sins, errors of judgement, and unfortunate decisions brought to light of day – probably on You Tube, People’s Court and worse.
I agree with person who said this is church sanctioned gossip – which is as the sin of murder. Public humiliation, ridicule and harassment are not Christian values — comes dangerously close to what was done in Spanish Inquisition – Church leadership setting themselves imposing their flawed interpretations on all under their authority. Pharisees? Laying burdens on people they would not carry themselves.
I couldn’t agree more
It is interesting that you mentioned the Spanish Inquisition, as I was thinking the same thing. I just listened to an interview on NPR conducted by Terry Gross that deals with the various inquisitions and compares the techniques to modern day. It may be worth listening to if you can handle some of the darker parts:
The Inquisition: A Model For Modern Interrogators:
http://www.npr.org/2012/01/23/145512271/the-inquisition-a-model-for-modern-interrogators
Here is an exerpt:
“Eight-hundred years ago, the first Inquisition was initially designed to deal with an upsurge in heretical activity from the Cathars in France. The Cathars’ unconventional interpretation of religious doctrine worried Pope Gregory and other Vatican leaders.
‘”The papacy was trying to centralize itself and assert its authority,” says Murphy. “So the pope basically deputizes various clerics. … They would come to a town, announce that they were there. They would begin to question people. Sometimes they would use harsh methods. … They would conduct tribunals and they would sentence people to various punishments.”‘
It is interesting that, though he is fairly anti-Catholic, Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill’s policies resemble the power and control of the Catholic Church in ages past.
(And just a note about my perspective: I am a committed Christian who cares deeply about the church, but am convinced that love, grace, forgiveness and mercy are much more powerful in the end than the kind of temporal power that seems to work in this world. It is the kind of seemingly up-side down way of Christ that leads us to power through weakness, life through death.)
You are the Pharisee
God save us..
It’s sick how many hoops mans religiosity wants us to jump through.
WE MUST CHANGE THIS!!!
God calls us to rely on His spirit and the church to
Confront our evils, confess them, bear one another’s burdens,
see our desperate need for Gods love and grace, repent, and move forward!
Rely and trust in Jesus, praise him through the good and bad,
be the church we are called to be, rather than adding all this bs and false doctrine.
If God wanted men to settle things on paper, he wouldn’t have sent Jesus to die.
To make a contract and listing his sins is like saying Jesus died for nothing :/
Pray for these people.
This is not awesome. This is awful. And the worst part is that this is so common, most people consider it right. You’re taking a risk here exposing such a little talked about common practice, but hopefully someone will find freedom from it through these posts… Just probably not through the comments as I’m seeing:)
agreed JuliaKate…you are very wise.
I understand the intend of your comment but I do not think this practice is common. I have been in church leadership for many years and this is the very first time I have heard of a discipline contract.
I have been in church leadership for nearly twenty years, was also a pk dk mk… It was common in policy with subtle differences in practice.
Well, I already think Mark Driscoll is a controlling wackadoo, but I do find the height and depth of his control HIGHLY disturbing.
If I was dealing with a something like this in a small group, I’d switch either the guy/girl out of the small group (it’s awkward to talk about feelings when your ex-fiance is sitting right there) and offer support/counseling. Then again, I’d do that for ANY one, no matter what path he/she is treading on.
Andrew, if you’re reading this, I’m really, really sorry about what happened at Mars Hill. Thank you for sharing your story with MPT and all of us.
I’m wondering if the girl underwent Church Discipline as well…
I wondered that too. Have followed up with that question. Will answer if I’m able to.
It would seem common sense for both parties to be addressed. Common sense unfortunately is a stretch for some.
She certainly should be, but I doubt it would be as involved considering Mark Driscoll’s stances on male authority and power.
I am going to say that she did not undergo any Church Discipline, MPT wrote this in the article:
“According to Andrew, at Mars Hill, the cliche “it takes two to tango” isn’t true. Why? Because Pastor Mark teaches that women are “weaker vessels,” and therefore, when a girl and boy engage in consensual sexual activity, it is always assumed that it’s the man’s fault because he failed to lead the woman (or “weaker vessel”) toward righteousness. (And everybody knows that women can’t find righteousness unless a man leads her there. Ugh.)”
This doesn’t surprise me at all, during High School I listened to Driscoll’s sermons on a daily basis and ate that sh!t up but after be introduced to the historical-critical method and looking at the Bible from a critical perspective I fully embraced the liberal side of things.
Mars Hill seems to be extremely hierarchical/patriarchal in its leadership, as we have seen with the UK interview Driscoll did with Brierley. So none of this is really at all surprising. And churches love meetings so…
How the person is treated is what matters. This contract can be used as a way of accountability and encouragement to fight off a temptation or it can be used to constantly remind someone of their past sin. We all sitting at our computers will have to wait and see, but the contract itself if kept private between person and leadership in itself is not a bad thing I don’t think. I don’t think a signed contract is the best way, but I cannot see what is wrong with it either. How it is used is where it can be good or bad.
I agree with that. But the terms of this contract are all directed at what Andrew has to do, with little to say about what “full restoration” or “walking in a repentant lifestyle” looks like. Outside of Andrew meeting with his community group leader, what kind of support is he getting, what does it look like?
Another troubling aspect: what are the consequences if he doesn’t abide by the terms of the contract?
I agree with that. The troubling thing about this contract is that it only spells what has to be done in order for Andrew to “walk a repentant lifestyle.” In fact, it doesn’t specify what “full restoration” is or what exactly a “repentant lifestyle” is. How does Andrew know when he has hit these benchmarks?
It also doesn’t specify what will happen if these benchmarks aren’t met or what will happen if Andrew doesn’t agree to the conditions MH has given him.
I just want to know is driscoll at cornerstone????
All I have to say is, God forgive this corporation that calls them Your church. For they don’t know what they are doing…
Is the Scripd file supposed to be an image of the actual document, aside from the X’s without any additional editing of the type? If so, how does an actual first or last name first in one character between “Pastor” and “X”? For the record, I don’t know what I’m talking about at all, but it just seemed like a logical question. I’m not saying the story is fabricated. I just thought that was strange.
“how does an actual first or last name FIT in one character…” is what I meant to type.
Names were replaced by X’s. There’s only one X for the pastor to eliminate any possibility of trying to figure which staff member that could be, I guess.
So then it’s not an exact image of the actual document, as the space for the last name was decreased. That’s all I was trying to determine. It said “here’s the contract that Andrew received” instead of “we retyped the contract that Andrew received,” so it just made me wonder.
Have you ever typed a password and gotten ****? The “x” is meant as a substitute for a letter or name. Not an exact number of x’s are used as another measure of protection.
MHC placed the X’s there or Andrew or MPT placed the X’s there? If it’s MHC, that makes sense. If it’s Andrew or MPT, then it’s not a copy of the original document. I realize I’m probably the one who is confused. I’m just trying to clarify that.
I made the changes to the document just to protect the names of people I don’t know. If anybody needs unedited proof of this, I’ll happily send it. It’s not fabricated in any way other than xxx being used rather than names.
Oh OK. I’m assuming you added a period as well after “Pastor X” in the second-to-last line under “plan of discipline? I think I’m still just confused about the tiny amount of space under each X or XXX, which doesn’t seem to allow for names longer than 1-3 characters. I’m not calling you a liar at all. It just seems weird to me.
Unless of course you added the xxx’s to a word document that Andrew emailed to you as opposed to an image file – like a PDF. But then of course it wouldn’t be an image of the original document as well. That’s all I was trying to determine.
Are you even paying attention to the real issues here, Craig? Seems like you are straining at gnats and swallowing camels…
In the 70s we called this The Shepherding Movement
In the 80s we called it The Prosperity Gospel
In the 90s we called it Swaggart
In 2000 we called it Haggard
I think equating this with any of the above is a bit of a stretch. The shepherding movement, for example, went far beyond simple church discipline.
yep. I went to Swaggarts from 1984-1988 I had a HUGE meeting for kissing a guy on the cheek. I was called a Jezabel and told I had a lust problem by my youth leader. I kid you not!
Yeah, Jim, I can’t imagine this going much further before Driscoll takes a dive. I can’t believe anyone listens to this guy.
So then it’s not an actual image of the contact, as the space allowed for the pastor’s name was decreased. It said, “Here is the contract that Andrew received (only alteration was the X’s)” and not “we retyped the contract that Andrew received, but this is not an image of the actual contract,” so it just made me wonder.
Did you get your nit picked yet? To me, it feels like you’re implicitly questioning the authenticity of this document. Forging something like this would be an incredibly stupid thing for an established writer like MPT to do, don’t you think?
Perhaps I’m misreading you, but the several comments you left with regards to this raised my suspicion.
Yes, it would be stupid, but I don’t reserve the right to question the authenticity of a document, simply because it’s posted by an established writer? Everyone on here is questioning Mark Driscoll, an established writer. Are you insinuating that person A is above reproach but person B is not?
Errr….don’t most contracts have a clause that states what happens if you break the terms? I’m curious what step 2 would have been if he, for example, refused to disclose his “complete sexual and emotional attachment history.”
And..complete? Like, third-grade complete? Like, first oddly stirring dreams complete? Or just…”who’d you get tangled up with that I know” complete?
I’m also a HUGE FAN of writing out a list of sins so that I can develop a whole plan thingy to ask forgiveness. You know, instead of just…asking.
Excellent point. Contracts also define the terms they use. What does “fully restored…walking in a repentant lifestyle” mean? Also, how long is he under discipline: is there a set time-frame, or is it open ended? I get setting something up where he promises to meet with his community group leader, he doesn’t date for a while, and he’s out of leadership while under discipline. But without a clear expectation of what it is the church is looking for Andrew to accomplish, he’s opening himself to the possibility of spiritual abuse.
And yes, I wonder what would happen if Andrew does break the terms…or out and out refuses to sign on with this program.
:) Loved your last line.
Heartbreaking. What’s crazy is that this all feels exactly like what I experienced at a christian music college I attended. only it didn’t involve a sexual relationship- it involved me getting caught eating a blueberry muffin with a girl at Perkins (who’s now my wife of 6.5 years). after being disciplined by the pastoral “authority” at the school, I was removed from the school, unable to graduate from the program, and told that God would never bless our relationship because it was born out of sin.
all for a freaking muffin.
then again, we did end up getting married and making 2 amazing babies.
so I guess I won. :)
That you can’t see the sexual imagery that just OOZES from “eating muffins” is probably the only reason that God didn’t just strike you dead immediately, rather than simply allowing you to be expelled from your school.
/snark
Paul, that’s an awful story with I’m sure a huge financial hit for you. Can you just say what “christian music college” this was? Thanks.
–Mom of college aged kids
I don’t have a problem with the contract (except for the last three bullet points, but more on that in a moment). I had a similar situation when I was 20. The pastor rebuked me and put me under, what I thought then, was a harsh discipline. But it helped me in more ways than I can even begin to describe. Too many people see discipline as punishment, and that’s a problem; discipline is correction. It’s purpose is to put you back on the correct path and then helping them to develop the personal tools to stay on that path.
My problem with the last three bullet points is this: they’re on a written contract (that makes it all legal sounding, right?) but nowhere on this contract is there one mention of what Pastor XXX might do with this information (or, more to the point, what WON’T under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be done with that information). Other than that, even those points are ok. Because they are, I think, part of that step of helping one develop the personal tools they need.
You sound like every other abuse victim who never figures out that the abuse was wrong.
Is the contract even effective? Let’s pretend that Andrew signed the contract and abided by its terms. Does Andrew receive grace and forgiveness by executing the contract? That doesn’t sound like the gospel to me; your actions don’t merit any grace. Does Andrew grow in faith and maturity by following the terms of this contract? How does Andrew benefit from extensively detailing his sexual sins on paper?
Church discipline is a good thing. Church surveillance, on the other hand, is not a good thing. I do wonder how King David, Solomon, Peter, Jonah and other great and greatly flawed saints of the Church would be treated at Mars Hill after their own infractions – sexual or otherwise.
The point of the contract and the church discipline is to retain church membership, not receive grace or forgiveness for the sins committed. If the guidelines are not followed then Andrew would be removed from church membership and likely unable to participate in church activities.
The point is to control every little aspect of people’s lives and personalities. To destroy their individuality, self-worth, self-respect and make them completely dependent on the church for every thought they have
I encountered something similar, but far worse, when I was part of an Acts 29 church, Mars Hills church planting network. I was a leader in the church, and gave my heart and sole to what I did and the community group that I lead. Both groups I lead grew very quickly, the first to 45 and the second to 28 in a few months. The leadership cracked down on me because I thought differently to how they did. With the same bullying style, they exploited some conflict in my group and using it as the scape goat, removed me from leadership, destroyed the group and finally excommunicated me when I pushed back. I was never even allowed to give my side to the story of the conflict. I was approached as one guilty and with remarkable prejudice.
When my group was told they were lied to and completely different list of reasons were given to my group than those were given to me as the reason for my removal. When I challenged this lie and asked for a meeting with one elder, I was met by another elder and was given an ultimatum to submit to the leaders, stop influencing people and to step down from all other forms of leadership (I also lead the church prayer meeting) or leave the church. The elder I was supposed to meet just sat by and watched as I got stonewalled by his crony. I was not even allowed to talk even though I was told that I could come to the church to talk about what had happened and reconcile. At no point was I told how I was failing to submit, nor was I told how I was influencing people.
When I pushed back to say that I was no longer being lead and discipled in love as was the church membership covenant I asked for another meeting to talk about what was going on. In that meeting I was continuously pressed to accuse the elder before being asked “what is your accusation”. I kept saying I was not there to accuse, but to talk about a problem. I finally gave in and listed my grievances. In response scripture was grossly misquoted to me to terminate the meeting prematurely and I was told that I was to appear before all the elders If I wanted to accuse an elder. ( more intimidation) I was excommunicated before this meeting ever happened because I was rude.
Many left the church as a result. Only 6 months later was I told why I had been excommunicated and was told that this would be the last communication between me and the church. They did not want repentance, they wanted control. It was the most unloving thing I have ever experienced in my life. This is not how excommunication is supposed to be used.
I appealed to the Acts 29 president and went as far as filling out the “elder accusation” form online. I completed pages of documentation and cited 6 or more witnesses. My case was dismissed without a single witness being contacted. I asked if I may ask how the acts 29 authorities could decide to dismiss my case without having contacted any of the witnesses. The answer I received simply stated: “No you may not. This matter is closed.” I have never seen such flagrant and unchecked abuse of authority and church offices in my life.
I never touched a girl. I however dared to believe in the Holy Spirit and that He is the one that will lead us into all truth. I dared to propose that we should focus on knowing God, not just Knowing about him, expecting Him to be God to us, as is promised in both the old and new covenants. Sadly, these leaders are now planting a new church in SanFrancisco. Very scary.
I am sad that this happens to people…similar to our story.
Can i repost your story on my blog? Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
For sure.
I am sorry, Brian. These things should not be, in Christ’s Church.
MPT,
I am glad Andrew was able to connect with you on this story. Andrew….nice move.
There are plenty examples in the bible were Joseph Brothers signed Egyptian Discipline Contracts for sending little brother to be a slave. Or where Paul hammers Peter for his hypocrisy and happen to be carry-ing a “Church Discipline Contract” in his robe pocket. Trying to remember how many times Jesus wrote up brother John, Mary and Martha, Peter, Judas Dog in upper room. I am sure its somewhere in my Bible. It goes back further too!
2 Kings 5 where the prophet Elisha not only turns Gehazi Leper white…. but Elisha also slipped Gehazi a Temple Dicipline Contract. ( see Josephus). Moses hit Aaron hard with a Document for that gold calf. Adam happen to be carry-ing a Discipline Document for Eve to sign in his Leif huggers. Eve was p—ed off when she saw that. Right after that God hit Adam not only with consequences BUT …… God busted out a giant 840 point Doc on Adam. Its recorded too that it was so bad Adam had to take a knee.
So check it out Andrew……..
This is precisely why Imago Dei in Portland broke off from mission with Mars Hill. Make a few calls. It is well known in Portland.
James
As someone has already said, there are two sides to every story. I respect Andrew for stepping out and sharing his story. Regardless, that takes courage.
That being said, there is a place for church discipline. As you alluded to, there is scripture that touches on that. Scripture that Driscoll references in the video you linked to, actually. The title of this entry says “Looking for true repentance at Mars Hill church?”. The only problem with that is, you don’t receive redemption of sins from your church after repentance. That comes from those you have sinned against (God, and someone you may have hurt). So, we’re coming at this discussion from a flawed angle, in my opinion. The purpose of a God centered community is to hold us up, encourage us, and at times hold us accountable for our sins (hand out discipline).
We have an issue in our Christian culture these days of this righteous fight against any sort of accountability. As a culture, we’ve run so far from judgementalism (something we should be careful of) that we’re no longer allowed to take a brother in Christ and say “You’re a believer in the infallibility of Gods word, and it says this is wrong, but you continue to do it”. We shouldn’t hold ourselves higher than someone struggling with a sin, but it is ok to confront that sin in their lives.
Of course, the real issue here is Mark Driscoll. As mentioned last week concerning FOF, it wouldn’t matter what Driscoll did, it would be wrong. There’s a large body of people that treat Driscoll as though he’s the spawn of Satan and nothing he does is going to be good. In the same way you enjoyed the FOF commercial until you knew it was an FOF commercial, the same attitude is applied to anything Driscoll does. There are plenty of musicians that I disagree with and would not enjoy spending time with them socially, but that doesn’t mean some of things they say in their songs aren’t good things to say, and that I can’t take that part of it for what it is. It just seems like that would be a more mature way to approach some things to me.
I can’t speak to the tones that were used in these meetings, as I was not there. If Andrew was treated with anything but love in those moments, I do regret that that happened.
What is this? The Christian equivalent of Wikileaks? Seriously?
Is this like a new niche – to dig up dirt or sling mud at someone else popular in the church? There are plenty of people in church leadership I disagree with, but what benefit does all this “exposing” serve?
While I agree the contract seems harsh, I can’t say I agree with this sort of expose journalism.
This guy did not have to become a member.
I will have to read the next part and see if there is going to be redeeming value to sharing this “scandal.”
“The Christian equivalent of Wikileaks.”
LOL.
“Is this like a new niche – to dig up dirt or sling mud at someone else popular in the church? There are plenty of people in church leadership I disagree with, but what benefit does all this “exposing” serve?”
It’s certainly not new, Mark has been doing it for a while. People need to be alerted to bullies like Mark. Being mentored, coached and nurtured is something I think churches should do and be known for. But if there is one out there dishing out abuse, then it needs to be called out.
Pastor Mark and Grace Driscoll have the NYT’s best selling book on advice with their marriage book. I think its important that Christians are aware of the author’s attitudes toward sexuality and sexual sin.
As long as MPT made a reasonable attempt to verify Andrew’s story with Mars Hill leadership its fair game.
I’m with David on this, IMHO this is just as petty as those stupid “I love Jesus but HATE religion/I love Jesus AND religion” videos. WHO CARES? The church splits into two or three or 500 sides and starts arguing about right their particular side is while pointing out all of the faults on the other side. What are you going to change by calling this out? Who are you going to change? What are you hoping to accomplish? Josh, you assert Pastor Mark is a bully and it needs to be called out… is this that platform? Is this blog going to bring him to repentance? I think there are a lot of ridiculous things about Mars Hill and I disagree with Mark Driscoll on a number of issues but I don’t feel the need to publicize it to the world. This is just polemical for the sake of being polemical. You should know this already… Mark’s followers are going to defend their way of doing things until they’re blue in the face—with SCRIPTURE! to back it up— while everyone else who thinks it’s craziness is going gasp and repost on Facebook for their friends to see AND THEN!
…nothing.
Unless the “much more” part is about the church apologizing to Andrew, I don’t need the shock value.
There will always be people who want to drink the koolaid of their idol and their will be others who God saves from this slavery. I’m not sure who is luckier.
Exposing abusive leadership is always right in all situations. I would hope someone would do the same for your son or daughter David.
I agree. So many things done by “spiritual authorities” are more about controlling and managing people than they are anything else, like scriptural discipline and restoration. This is one significant reason so many believers (like myself) are not attached to any local fellowship in this day. Sad, but true. True leadership needs to become aware of the abuses and repent (turn).
This kind of ridiculous logic is what enables cults to exist.
Mark Driscoll is a public figure who speaks and writes publicly, all by his own choice.
Actions like this are fair game for fair criticism. And Andrew certainly has a right to let his side of the story be heard.
Mars Hill IS a cult
There is certainly value in people sharing their pain in a communal way, though it is very common in Christian culture for churches and their leaders to become defensive and call “foul” when someone shares their story. Here in East Texas, I know of several people who have had terrible, painful issues with their churches (sometimes laypeople and other times leadership). In each case, the “complainers” have been stonewalled and shit out from their church families, when being given a platform to air grievances and being embraced by their church would seem to be a much more Christlike path.
If the community involved cannot find a way to love and heal one another, I see nothing inherently wrong with people like Andrew coming forward in a forum like this to tell their stories and to receive acceptance and commiseration from others. I imagine Andrew, specifically, likes this forum and feels comfortable here partly because of his personal anonymity here–after feeling betrayed or mishandled by those who were supposed to love and know him, a group of strangers just might be the most comfortable place he could fine to share a story that he was not allowed to tell when it might have helped him.
That’s a great point David. Thank you for your perspective. I suppose what frustrates me the most is that I feel powerless in this kind of an instance to do anything meaningful to push back against this kind of megalomaniacal, anti-Gospel craziness. I think in situations like this it’s an easier answer for me to say live and let live, even if the let live has been guilty of perpetrating egregious offenses and especially in the case of the church, which is neither right nor prudent. I tend to err (too far) on the side of letting God be the one to sort things out in the end, but that doesn’t mean to neglect the now. Andrew, thanks for sharing your story, and I hope you are able to find healing and meaningful community. MPT, thanks for not just “letting live”.
In a strange way I found myself a bit envious of Andrew and others, at least they actually spent time with you. Of course my sin was far worse, I grieved. I have tried to repent of such emotionalism but that is a different post. An honest question to the Christians here, why do you call it good news, from the cheep seats its not good news, it really is not.
the “good news” is that you endure “Hell” in this life so that you don’t have to in the next. Isn’t that awesome? (please read with lots of sarcasm.)
Paul explains that the good news is that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and was raised on the third day. Jesus died to pay for our sins, our offenses against God. All the things I did that I should not have done. All the things I should have done and did not. The things that keep me from a holy God have been paid for by God’s own son. Not only that, but he came back to life. Jesus, God’s son, paid for my sins by his death on the cross and God brought him to life again. That is good news.
But, Steve. That’s not the message MH is proclaiming in Andrew’s case. And I guess that’s the point of this whole post.
There is nothing wrong with church discipline, but it is extremes such as this that swings the pendulum the other way towards no discipline. The worst part of it is him being asked to write down all his sins. What happened to “love keeps no records of wrongs”? I hesitate to use the “c” word, but recorded confessions is classic cult territory.
“confessions is classic cult territory.”
Yup. Sounds a little like Scientology. Lots of guilt and control.
Guilt and control is all organized Christianity has ever been about. Those ridiculous attitudes about sexuality have been there from the very beginning and were made up by screwed up people like Paul and St. Augustine. It’s just that they seem particularly ridiculous today, given that society at large has moved away from them
Amen to that, Steve
It’s sad that so many people are quick to judge while accusing others without one scripture reference! There isn’t one Bible verse listed in the comments, just opinions and thoughts. It doesn’t matter what we think is politically correct or fair or unfair, it’s what God’s Word tells us. Like someone said earlier in the postings, confession means nothing if there’s no repentance! Before you feel sorry for the guy in the story, find out for yourself what the Bible says about church discipline. I’m not condoning the way Mars Hill handled it, and we’re all human and flawed so more than likely mistakes were made, but that doesn’t make this guy the victim. Put yourself in the elders shoes, imagine he had cheated on your daughter or your friends daughter, then on top of that had been having premarital sex! It’s not a small issue and him cheating isn’t something that just happened. You either have enough self control to not do it or you need to be diligent in not putting yourself in those situations. Anyway. I just want to encourage you to look for yourself in the Bible and base your response from that.
I don’t need the bible to know right from wrong and call it out. If I did use it that way, I would still be ok with slavery. Which is way worse ImO than, Oh heavens! Premarital sex!
Oh. Well that’s convenient. I guess my life would be a lot easier if I didn’t worry about what the Bible had to say about right and wrong either, come to think of it.
BTW, the slavery thing is a complete canard… if you really just hate being told you’re wrong for doing particular things called sins in an old book, just say that, don’t stoop to yanking things out of context.
Josh, that attitude is exactly what’s wrong with today’s culture. Who are you that you know right from wrong? How can you tell someone that sleeping with a child is wrong when in his mind he sees it as right? There are a million examples I could give. If you don’t believe in the Bible and that it’s the Word of God, then I can understand why you think that way. If you don’t have a basis for your truths, then all you have are gut feelings and what you think is right which is going to differ from many others.
Given that we’re told in the Scripture itself that the law is written on the hearts of those who don’t believe, I think we can know when someone is hurting another person even if one does not believe in the Bible. Since there are many, many, many people in the world who don’t believe in the Bible, this makes no sense, or we’d have nothing but chaos.
Are you talking about the scripture in Romans or Jeremiah Alise? Could you maybe put the verse and the verses around it up?
I was speaking of this passage in Romans 2:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:1-16&version=NIV
Thanks for the verse Alise! So you wouldn’t say this a chaotic world? Famine, hunger, rape, genocide, war…. I think it’s pretty obvious that we do live in a chaotic world and a world where people obviously don’t have the same moral standards. So you believe we don’t need the Bible to learn from because it’s already written on our hearts? If you read in the verses you referenced, a man/woman will still be judged according to God’s law, not the law of man. I just want people to know God’s truths, unpopular as they may be, and live a life that’s pleasing and in praise of Him!
Hilarious hoops. Quote scripture! is your call, without quoting any scripture that says you need to quot scripture to be taken seriously. You guys are funny. I hope Josh and Alise aren’t taking this hypocrisy seriously.
The psychology of morality tells us that people have intuitions about matters of morals and values (which are formed in all kinds of ways) and then we form post hoc justifications for those. If you are religious and believe that morality comes from God, your post hoc justifications will be religious in nature. In other words, you may think you are getting your morality from the bible. But science has shown us that this is usually something we have decided already. You are just justifying it through the bible. A problem then arises when you think that you must line up with the bible to uncover what is right and wrong. It’s a false perception of reality and is a inconsistency in your decision making on what is right and wrong.
You and I have a sense of right and wrong as a human being. (whether you believe that is from God or from natural laws is another thing entirely)
Sometimes this sense is damaged. (sociopaths for example) But it is something we all have. It can get tweaked by culture and high-jacked by religion but it is still apart us as a species. This narrow minded idea that we have to rely on the authority of text that, is irrelevant in many places, conceived by men and edited by men over thousands of years for the advancement of an ideology is ridiculous. People have created much more ethical society’s than that of the ancient Hebrews without Yahweh or the bible. Btw Tom, the society of the ancient Hebrews did promote slavery. That is, ‘God’ was okay with them OWNING other people like cattle. Women also were considered property. That is not “out of context.”
Josh, I appreciate your in depth analysis of the human psyche, and I can respect that it’s what you believe. According to your theory though, a young German boy born into the nazi regime, grows up hating Jews and pretty much everyone else other than other nazis will have the same morality as a young Jewish boy growing up in the same era? In Amsterdam it’s legal to smoke marijuana, but illegal in the states, so which is right? If man is left to his own devices and your theory is true, why is there rape, murder, looting, abortion? If we all have the same morality, why can’t homosexuals be married in most states? Shouldn’t we all have the same view on that? So ultimately you’re relying on your own heart and mind to decide what’s right and wrong? I’ll have to disagree with you. Even though you may not believe it, I know that one day every man and woman will have to give an account of themselves and I hurt for those who make a mockery of God on this earth. And you said other societies have done a better job? Israel is still standing isn’t it? What other ethical societies are you referring to?
Alise, just because you say non-Christians have the law written on their hearts, does that mean they will obey it? No, why would they? Is child labor a bad thing? Yes, but nike and other corporations exploit it. Is prostitution wrong, biblically yes , but in Vegas and other countries it’s legal. That’s why we need the Bible and it’s truths.
The Bible doesn’t say anything about child labor practices.
That’s the problem. The bibles truths allow for some pretty terrible things. I offer slavery and the mistreatment of women as a prime example.
If you need a book to tell you that having sex with a child is hurting it then you’re a sociopath.
At the time the Bible was compiled it was perfectly normal for men to marry young girls by the way, just as it is common in some middle eastern countries today
Two quick points if I might, Dan. To be fair…
1) The letter/contract from Mars Hill was also written without one scripture reference.
2) Your comment also was written without one scripture reference.
Thanks Andy! I appreciate the feedback. I actually didn’t read over the contract as I’m on my mobile and couldn’t download it, so I was unaware there were no scripture references in it! Secondly, I’m not trying to prove whether Mars Hill’s church discipline is biblical or not, it very well may not be. I was just surprised at the lack of scripture references from those so vehemently opposed to it! It appeared to be all based on how they felt or what they thought was right in their own eyes. I just wanted to encourage them to see what the Bible says first, because we know if we’re preaching the true gospel we’re going to be hated and despised by the world. “”If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” John 15:18 NASB If you want scripture references to church discipline I’d be happy to get them for you as well Andy!
You hypocrite! You expect us to hear your words, yet you did not follow them yourself – you did not quote a single reference!
Beyond that, I totally disagree. If one speaks what is true (or, the “truth of God” – all truth is God’s truth), it is true whether they quote a reference for it or not. In fact, I could even make the statement that the references are not part of the inspired word, and Jesus often did not even reference which “book” or prophet he was referring to, and seldom quoted verbatim. True, the scriptures are powerful, but points that the Spirit of God has taught us in life (which ,by the way, will line up with scripture) are also powerful and informative. If this were not so, every Sunday sermon would be limited to merely quoting the text with no exposition.
Beyond that, I would have liked to have heard Matthew 18:15-17 mentioned as an appropriate model for church action and discipline. Local fellowships might be much healthier if they adhered to it.
Steven, I agree with you that there needs to be exposition along with scriptures. I’m not commenting on the church discipline or saying whether it’s wrong or right! I just want people to be in the Word because I believe this. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (2 Timothy 3:16 NASB)” a lot of times things done nowadays aren’t very popular, but that doesn’t mean they’re unbiblical! I just want to encourage everyone to be in Gods Word and praying for discernment on the matter instead of speaking from their gut. I guess you didn’t finish reading the comments either because I do autos scripture, and it happens to be one of three times it’s quoted in the comments, with 139 comments!
* Reference scripture
Thanks for your comment, Dan; and I agree, we all need to be in the scriptures. I was merely reacting to the idea that what is said is not valid (true) unless references are used. A lack of references does not necessarily indicate that one is merely winging it or speaking from the gut, and with this comment of yours now, I understand that you are aware of this. And no, there are way too many comments for me to have waded through yet, so I was responding to the first that I saw. Blessings.
It seems to me that there’s a huge difference between being caught in sin and confessing it yourself. As this story is told, Andrew confessed voluntarily. He has been cooperative and contrite. I think working together with him on some sort of accountability is good and healthy, but asking him to detail every little thing in WRITING sounds like a set-up for blackmail and manipulation. It sounds like he has some past mistakes that would be good to work through, but why would you call it “church discipline?” That sounds punative instead of restorative. Accountability and counseling are just how they sound — accountability and counseling, and that’s what he needs/needed. These things are not church discipline (though they can certainly help people avoid the kinds of sin that lead to church discipline).
P.S. Thanks for the cliff-hanger, MPT.
I agree with everything you said Joy. He did openly confessed and his confession will be a good example to others to keep it to themselves.
Well, he confessed originally to his fiance that he had cheated on her. But he had also been (unrepentantly) engaging in sin with HER as well. This establishes a pattern, if not an addiction. If someone came to me and said, hold me accountable, my response would not be “ok. all done.” It would involve follow-up and accountability. A comment above said it would be good to know how that contract is treated (secretly stored ? made public? torn up after a period of time?). Accountability is good. Keeping a permanent record of wrongs is not.
Well, he no longer had the opportunity to “sin” with his fiancee because she dumped him, so that doesn’t seem to be a problem anymore either. Hard to be “addicted” to sex with someone who won’t see you. By the point he was handed a contract there was a non-problem to be solved, but people who want to control you know when they have you by the nuts.
And why is there no discipline for this fiancee if the “sin” was being “physical” (whatever that means) with her? Are women incapable of sexual sin? Or is it because she was the daughter of an elder, and was hurt, and now the leadership is out to make the man suffer?
Something like 98% of married people have premarital sex, especially engaged couples. That moves it from being an “addiction” to more like a part of the human condition–and this “sin” is not even specifically forbidden in the Bible, although it can be arrived at by implication.
Read it and grieve over it. This is so true of todays churches, in my opinion completely UN-Christlike.
I relate to this young man, my 18 year old son was taken in by a Mark Driscoll wannabe here in MN,
please see our story.
http://onemothersjourney7.blogspot.com/
And THANK YOU for writing this story, may I encourage anyone and everyone with the desire to share the garbage going on in todays churches to do so. The Mark Driscolls, Steven Furticks, Ed Youngs, Perry Nobles and their wannabes- the light needs to reflect the darkness going on those church communities.
Do you know if this type of contract applies to ALL sin, or just men having sex? Seriously.
What bothers me is that the contract says he hid his sin by using deception. From what I just read, he was not only honest and forthcoming but willing to discuss a very personal issue with many people. I’ve seen people legitimately hide sexual sin through deception. They lie, they make excuses, they continue to live in sin. The most bothersome thing, however, is that the goal doesn’t seem to be restoring him to the Church, but rather shaming him. I come from a Baptist tradition, and I”ve seen Church Discipline ONCE in my life. It was done in love, the goal was restoration, and it wasn’t shaming and damaging like this seems to be. My heart breaks for this man. We should look at Christ as our example – Go, and sin no more. Not sin, and let’s revisit this over and over even though you’ve (assuming) stopped the act. And then prove you’re done sinning.
Can’t believe I am saying this because I don’t even like Mars hill but this is an extremely biased account of events and everything is just speculation of what is assumed to be accurate details to this depiction of events.
Even by this story I see an individual who has a pattern in his life and self proclaimed christian beliefs.He was in ministry/ leadership, held to a higher standard James 3:1 and yet he did hide his sexual relations with his fiancee for several months prior to cheating on her.
Accountability isn’t just a “oh hey we talked about this for a couple weeks and now your good to resume your position of ministry over others.” Also when it is mentioned that people started to treat him differently. Well what did you expect? You cheat on your fiancee and then expect every one to act peachy about it? Not many social contexts out there that your not gonna get a negative reaction.
Even by this account there was a patient process that was followed and it appears that the people of the church sincerely wish for this young man to reconcile with their community.
A very harsh and disappointing outcome for what could have been resolved so much smoother. Hopefully Andrew has learned the consequences of giving into his flesh and hopefully the church will be wiser in their future attempts of restoration.
No, I’m not shocked, because Driscoll has always reminded me exactly of the male leadership of the abusive church I was a part of. He is following the blueprint for a religiously controlling cult.
Prediction: The subtle message going out to his members is that unless you are a member of his network of churches, you aren’t really saved.
I have not read everyone’s comments so please forgive me if I say something others have said:
1. I believe in accountability but not control.
2. As someone who has gone through counseling, taken some counseling classes, taken leadership courses, and pastor two churches, there are some red flags.
a. how many people were involved with this young man’s accountability—I can understand the small group had issues with what happened and felt betrayed thus needing to let the young man go to another group…..but small groups are most effective when they work through the betrayals and conflicts together. They show grace, learn to forgive, and help that person who is struggling learn to reconcile with others as well as those who are hurt how to reconcile. It is a shame this didn’t happen. Secondly, many meetings, many people involved in this becomes an issue. We shouldn’t be parading offenders in front of others. Shame is not the best motivator.
b. Who created the contract? Did the young man have a say in the contract other than signing it? In counseling–especially in relationships which have been damaged, one allows the offended to set some standards and lines not to be crossed for the offender to agree to and earn trust back. But the offender also has a say in how he/she will take steps to be healthy. The concerns between the two parties must be discussed and defined. Grace and mercy must be extended by the offended at some point in order to heal the relationship. And so, if this young man, was simply given these conditions—that is control not relationship.
Just my thoughts. I find this practice borderline and potentially very harmful. Giving power to people in relationship, setting them up as discipliners opens us up to abusive situations. I believe there is a healthy way to hold each other accountable. I believe we can be much more gracious than what it appears in this story and contract.
Wow, this gives me flashbacks to my traditional Mennonite upbringing (almost Amish) where church discipline was a big, big deal and involved similar levels of guilt and control. Though it was (and still is) all done verbally and in person, because the internet is forbidden.
So no, I would not sign the contract, Andrew. I would turn and run!
What is the hopeful outcome?
This is after a month (!!!!) of meetings. What is the goal? How does one measure the level of repentance that fulfills the contract? Is it measured in time? In acts of penance? In gallons of tears cried? In the number of people who know just how much he screwed up? Is it based on just how depraved he is?
I guess now we know what Jesus was writing in the sand for the woman caught in adultery – it was her discipline contract.
I guess now we know what Jesus was writing in the sand for the woman caught in adultery – it was her discipline contract.
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Nailed it.
Spot on Drea!!
That’s a truth bomb Alise! Boom!
I believe in accountability, but this is way overboard. True accountability is mutual, it involves the guilty party seeking out accountability because they need it. If a contract were to be involved, both parties should be involved in drafting it for everyone’s edification. This just seems like a control issue because of whose daughter got hurt. I wonder if this is a consistent policy for everyone across the board, or just if you offend the wrong people. They can’t possibly have enough resources to schedule that many meetings with EVERY church member who has sexual sin.
Also, it burns me up that Driscoll creates a culture in his church where he talks about oral sex from the pulpit and writes about anal sex in his book and talks about Song of Solomon pretty regularly. And yet they act like this when some of their single people decide that they might like to try it? Driscoll can’t be that sexually explicit and then expect it not to be something that causes single people trouble.
As a pastor this breaks my heart. I hate when religious people try to control others. Andrew already felt convicted and was repenting. In my eyes this never should have left the small group, except for possible counseling of the two of them with a real counselor or pastor, but probably not a Mars Hill Pastor after reading this.
If many of the men in the church feel “beaten down” then that’s not a real church! The point of church is to build each other up and encourage each other! Jesus didn’t come here to condemn the world but to save it!
Also, if everyone in the church had to have meetings and sign a contract everytime they sinned wouldn’t they run out of time and space to put the contracts?
Andrew made some mistakes but he knows that! He confessed to the people that need to know and I’m guessing apologised and repented, if God has forgiven him who are these ‘church’ leaders to tell him otherwise?
Andrew, I’m so sorry that this happened to you–that your hardest moments were not met with love and grace.
Thank you for sharing your story. I hope that in the telling, you will find some measure of healing.
I wonder is Jesus had to draw up a quick contract for the guy hanging beside him on the cross…
No, no, no, no….I would not. This makes me incredibly sad and should not be this difficult of a process.
This is evidence, unfortunately, of what Americans call “church” not being what the bible talks about at all. This then causes such great confusion within a religious culture when one doesn’t like the church they see and decides to not participate, then they get questioned for their faith. Sad story but all too much of “church” like this is about control more than lack of control and grace.
Amen.
What a tough story. Church discipline is easy to neglect and easy to abuse. I witnessed first hand a scenario where a pastor needed to go through a restoration process, but he tried to control it. That wasn’t exactly the best for anyone. On one hand I can see the value in submitting to pastors (both male and female pastors that is), but it’s terrifying to read about the way this power is used sometimes. I wonder if sometimes the wielding of power becomes the point rather than the real goal of restoration? Just thinking out loud.
Everything being said on here… Comes down to this:
1. What is the will of God for us? To be the Church. To exhort, edify, and love all that is truth,
And hate everything that is of the world.
2. What is Gods church? It’s a body, family, it’s the pure ekklesia, the bride,
not an unbiblical building filled with unbiblical doctrine.
Not saying its completely wrong to congregate at a temple or building… But what are our motives?
Is there a NEED for it? No. There is a need to spend DAILY life in his word and to be THE CHURCH everywhere we go with our friends and loved ones.
There should only be one need, and that is God.
If we really love God and ask for his will in a situation like this,
what would you think his reply would be?
Andrew confessed. To the person he transgressed.
He was looking and willing to do all forms of biblical, and of man made ways
to get right again with the believers he called family, and the system called a church.
HAVE WE AS A PEOPLE FORGOTTEN WHAT IT IS TO BEAR ONE ANOTHER’S BURDENS?!
To confront, reveal sin, in ourselves first and then others, if the truth is not accepted or loved, tell them several times in love, and then let them go, for they choose a lie… If they love the truth and in doing so repent from their ways, and as the church then lead them back to a right standing, whether that means being more strict, or tougher love, so be it, but make sure its a biblical, right way that is tested and true through His word and the Holy Spirit… So we all may be more appreciative and love Jesus, and help continue that love, by being the church. For when we love him, we know him and his teachings, and obey Him. Constantly worshipping God with our lives. Loving one another, praising Him constantly, praying for one another.
If that had been done in this situation.
If Gods way of doing things is done in our lives,
There’s no need for jumping hoops, and pleasing man.
Simply please God.
There will never be a need for us to prove through paper, or words.
And all religion has done is make people feel unworthy, and make them feel like they need to do better.
Jesus didn’t die for nothing.
Let our tongues truly say what our hearts believe, then our actions will speak.
He will do his work through us.
No need to aim and please people, the right people, the church, will be pleased
By what he does through us.
In any church where there is a hierarchical division of power oppression in the name of “church discipline”/”the greater good”/”your own good”/etc. is bound to happen.
Does anyone read and truly believe in the Bible anymore? All I hear and see here are gross misuses of scripture at best and incorrect theology. Maybe Mark’s church isn’t the one with the problem…
Like
now why isn’t there a period after “like”? is that a real “like” or were you quoting something?
Did I post an image of an actual document, or did I type in a free-form comment space?
Irrelevant, Craig. I don’t believe it was stated to be an “Image”, or even a “copy”. While he did say, “Here is the contract”, it seems reasonable to assume that it is not the actual contract since we are reading and viewing it online, but a representation of the contract. So why do you press this point (I realize John’s point was made with sarcasm…)?
This isn’t a grammar website, I know what he’s saying here. I would worry more about the state of our “brothers and sisters in the Lord,” than punctuation.
And…”correct theology” would be defined by…? (please don’t say “what I already believe” or even “what most Christians believe” / “what most Christians like myself believe”)
And, where in what Matthew wrote did you see “gross misuses of scripture”? (or were you referring to the comments)? How are you identifying “gross misuses of Scripture”? (Tip: Be careful here. Your definition may accidentally include the way many New Testament writers use Old Testament scripture.)
I was referring to the comments, not the actual article, sorry, I should’ve specified. I would describe correct theology as the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially the study of God and of God’s relation to the world which we do through the reading of His infallible Word, the Bible. I’m not here to argue with you or anyone else, I just want people to be in the Word and base their comments from that if they call themselves Christians. Gross misuses of scripture are when people take a verse or passage and use it to fit their argument which you can do for pretty much anything. It’s scattered throughout the comments.
Dan , I would need to know which theology that you believe is the right one before I agree or disagree with your take on this. But I’m sorry that we will not know the “correct” theological choice until we meet our makers. I wonder if the Lord considers himself a Calvinist or Armenian?
Dan, get off your overspiritualizing high horse and consider for a moment that abuse of power is alive and well in many “churches” and “christian” organizations, leaving scores of shattered individuals in their wake. It takes years to recover.
Call it what you want Pam, but I never once stated I agree with mars Hills use of disciple and I’m sorry if I offended you. I obviously understand the ‘church’ is made up of flawed people and people do get hurt and wrong decisions are made! I won’t argue that, I am not Pro Mars Hill or Pro Mark Driscoll, I just want people to go to Gods Word and find their truths there instead of from man or from their own minds. I’ll be the first to admit I’m a terrible sinner, and I still sin daily, but I am always in the Word, praying for wIsdom and discernment and I would urge you to do the same.
*discipline
All I can see is that your church has managed to destroy you and has you under its control. You could use some therapy to try to heal
Love the Mars Hill logo on the contract, that makes it so official, especially in the eyes of God… Andrew should create his own logo and use it in all correspondence with Mars Hill Church…
Thank you. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks it looks weird.
Why didn’t they go ahead and throw in there (somewhere) their web address, facebook page address and twitter account… and maybe a plug for Mark’s latest book???
That’s true. What organization uses letterhead anyway? That’s just silly. Plain white stock is what Jesus would have used.
Hmm, lots of self righteous people seem to be thinking that this was a “good thing.” How many of you, if your deepest thoughts were to be made public, would also need such discipline? My guess is everyone here. But we put on our pious, yet very cool, images and play sinless except for occasionally drinking a bit too many microbrews (that is a cool sin).
If you believe this is a good process, why not take off your masks and let everyone know what is going on? Surely you would love to be disciplined since it is such a good thing. Let he who has no sin after being disciplined cast the first stone.
This young man has demonstrated more guts than many in his confession. He has been beaten down for a long time and now he gets “disciplined?” This is not discipline, this is downright abusive.
Did Mars HIll inform him that they probably had legal vet the contract? Did they advise him to seek counsel so that it was a level playing field?
I hope this guy got out of that legalistic excuse for a church and finds the real grace offered by Jesus.
Completely agree.
I wrestle with the demands placed on Andrew. The expectations for his repentance, confession and penance are extensive and specific. The process of evaluation and determining when Andrew has accomplish said demands are, at best, vague and arbitrary.
To request such specific action from Andrew should absolutely be met with a clear expression of how these leaders will ‘judge’ his state of discipline and at what point they will offer their ‘absolution’.
The best these people in their position of spiritual authority can offer is a corporate endorsement of human forgiveness and acceptance.
Andrew’s genuine confession and repentance are truly only known by God.
The Bible is clear that it is the Spirit that convicts, not other men. The Bible is also clear on how this process is to go forward. First, you approach your brother one-on-one if he is in a sinful situation. Only if he rejects your advice to change course is there a need to go to level 2; bringing a witness. Third, involve the church. These are all based on the assumption that the “sinner” is stubbornly refusing to change course. Andrew INDEED is changing course and it’s clear the spirit is convicting just fine without the help of M.D. or his staff.
Church leaders should be condemned for placing guilt on someone who is ALREADY convicted by the spirit, has WILLINGLY confessed (prior to the church sin-swat team) and is ALREADY forgiven.
Oh good God! He is a grown man, an adult. This kind of thing makes me sick. Exactly why I walked away from institutional church. Can you say ‘cult’? This is clearly a need for power and control.
Quite right, Brenna. And, I am sorry about this, and hope you and I can help the true Church become what she needs to be. I know it is God’s work, but maybe somehow, somewhere He will use us, according to His good pleasure!
I also meant to add that this method of “church discipline” is not even close to what’s called for in the Bible. First of all, Andrew is the one who brought it up, about himself, and he’s to be commended for that. Don’t miss this, HE CAME IN REPENTANCE. In the last step of church discipline (bringing it up before others), the person is being disciplined for a lack of repentance, not for the specific sin that they did. In this case, by the time anyone in the church heard about it (in this case, his fiance and his comm group leader), he was already at the state of repentance!! There was no need for his sin to be mentioned to ANYONE ELSE in the church, according to the Bible! At that point, his comm group leader (or a pastor or elder) should have counseled him and discipled him and that should have been it. Mars Hill/Driscoll/Acts 29 = authoritarian power and trying to control people.
Good point Gary. I think that’s the main reason as to why this is a disgrace. Isn’t honesty and admitting you were wrong what repentance is? Not some unknown “until I say so” bs.
Actually, that’s not what repentance is. Anyone can say they sinned and say they’re sorry, but true repentance is a changing of behavior away from the sin they committed. If a man gets convicted of rape, gets caught and says he’s sorry, does that mean he won’t rape again? More than likely no, he needs to actively change his lifestyle and his way of thinking. How else will you know if someones changing other than their word if you don’t have discipline? I don’t necessarily agree with the Mars Hill way, but measures definitely do need to be taken. I wouldn’t want someone who cheated on their fiancée, and was having premarital sex leading the youth group or young adults. There needs to be a change. Don’t you agree?
Dan,
I may not want Andrew to lead a youth group or to be in another leadership position. However, I would want him to be in some counseling I think he made a good start by confessing. Now he needs to be brought along and discipled. Making a plan for restitution is a good idea, asking for a list of all previous sexual sins is not. There are no guarantees in life that he won’t have this problem again. IMHO, this whole situation would’ve been a lot less involved if he hadn’t been engaged to the daughter of an elder.
Hey Steve, I agree with you 100%! I don’t agree wih Mars Hills discipline, I should’ve stated that. Someone previous said he confessed his sin, and said that’s the same as repentance, I was just using Andrews story as an example. I agree With everything you said and it’s true, it would’ve been a lot easier if it wasn’t an elders daughter!
“it would’ve been a lot easier if it wasn’t an elders daughter!”
That’s the real shame of this whole mess. What I see when I read this is not an attempt at restoration, but an attempt at vengeance. Confession, Repentance, Restitution, Restoration should be the order of the day.
Absolutely. Contract or no, there seem to be way to many people involved in this situation. I’ve signed my share of disciplinary contracts, but only because I had broken rules that I chose to prescribe to in affiliating myself with the Christian Organizations of my choosing. I think MH must make a distinction between discipline for the sake of righting an individual (Andrew) within the congregation and discipline for the sake of sanctification. Some sins are social in nature and therefore require social rectitude. Other sins are individual and therefore require confession for the sake of the individual. Guilt and Shame should have been left behind at the reformation (says this Catholic). This contract itself doesn’t seem to imply guilt or shame, but the process certainly does. MH chooses to run itself as a corporation and therefore this contract makes sense within their context. But the process by which it is enforced does not.,
1. The fact that the woman was not included in such “discipline” is frustrating. Like you say in the post, it takes two to tango, but evidently women are too weak to want a sexual relationship and therefore get to play victim? That’s just ridiculous. The feminist in me got rage-y at that point.
2. HE CAN’T DATE INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE CHURCH? It’s a church of 10,000! I can understand saying “please try to abstain from dating for the time that you are going through counseling,” but that’s completely different from what they have written. I could even understand saying “please don’t date inside the church” if it was a small church. But it’s a church of 10,000 – “don’t date inside the church” is ABSURD.
Here’s the thing: Recovering from something like this (even though I don’t think what he did was necessarily a sin – the cheating, yes, the other stuff, ehh, maybe not?) requires YOU to set your OWN rules. Someone else cannot come in and say, “You can’t date for x amount of time.” Andrew needs to be able to make that rule for himself – is he ready and okay to date again (probably not so soon after breaking up with a fiancee)? Should he make a rule for himself not to date until he’s healed from this process? That’s for Andrew to decide. That is not something that someone else who barely knows Andrew can set down in a contract!
THAT bothers me the most – the gall to exert such total control over a person’s dating life OUTSIDE of the church. That’s just sick.
Dianna, you are correct: what he did may or may not be sin–but it most certainly isn’t the sort of sin that would necessitate church discipline. The bible is pretty clear on what sorts of behaviors call for discipline, and making out with someone (engaged or no) is definitely not one of those. Check out the OT, for example, the point that sex before marriage becomes sin seems to be if the man refuses to do right by the woman (ie, marry her, pay a fine to her father, etc); making out with a woman–while perhaps not wise–is categorically different than this.
You’re trying to give him the means to be good on himself. To get his own affairs in order by himself. A church can’t have that. Churches are about control. Inventing imaginary sicknesses (like the alleged “sexual sin” is accused of committing) and then coming up with “cures” only the church has is their entire business model. Catholics have confession, fundamentalist Protestants have this shit. Next thing people will think they can be good and decent people without god. No, no. Better to make them dependent on the church for every thought and action
This is weird, controlling, and cult-like. Driscoll gives me the willies, as does anyone who won’t question him.
Thank you for talking about this. I’ve been in group counseling sessions with people who have been members of Mars Hill church and their stories are nothing short of shocking and make me weep.
It seems there are four categories of people commenting here:
1) Those who believe Driscoll, MHC, and A29 can do no wrong.
2) Those who have serious axes to grind with Driscoll, MHC, A29, and probably church in general.
3) Those who think sin isn’t a big deal and that church discipline shouldn’t be more than confession and “go and sin no more.”
4) Those who believe elders should take sin and church discipline seriously but don’t agree with this approach.
I personally only think the opinions of category #4 are actually constructive, as the other three have zero chance of being objective. Unfortunately, that rules out the vast majority of comments.
I have a hard time with the use of the term objective. Nothing and no one is objective. We see things from our point of view shaped from our experiences, informed by nurture and education, etc.
The best I can offer you or any one is my view–as narrow or as shortsighted as it is, my experience as limited as it is.
Those who love Driscoll and are ministered to by him, need to understand there are many who do not feel that way and in fact have been hurt by his theology and teaching. For some reason “brand loyalty” in Christianity causes us great offense when someone disagrees with our favorite teacher or theologian. Perhaps, we need to see that other people disagreeing with our fav. theologian or teacher does not diminish the fact that we are blessed by them. Share your story. You don’t have to be objective but realize that you are not being objective.
Those who have been hurt by Driscoll or disagree with Driscoll need to understand many have been blessed through him. And they need to hear the story of those who have been blessed. Then share their story. You don’t have to be objective, just realize you are seeing the world and Driscoll through your own theological lenses.
Objectivity is nearly non existent. We all have baggage. We all have points of view. I would rather call us to own our story, realize it has flaws and doesn’t match up with others. And I will not ask you to measure up to mine.
Great reply, Leanne.
Craig, I believe that I fall into category 4. Unfortunately the manner in which MHC handled this situation is entirely inappropriate. The incident that the author describes is arguably *not sinful*, but even if it is, the practice of such severe discipline (brow beating?) is incongruent with the man’s confession (mind you, he was not found out) and expressed repentance.
We make light of sin when we treat relatively trivial behaviors as if they were matters of profound impact. All sin is not equal, and Paul (and scripture generally) seems to make pretty clear that it is divisive or directly harmful behavior and routine pagan practice (including sexually deviant behavior–eg sex with your mother-in-law) that when performed without repentance (or even bragging) is the sort of subject for discipline. This was none such.
Galatians 6:1… snap…
Culture of Honor by Danny Silk… Someone at MH should read that.. man…
“An old meaning of the word ‘restoration’ is to find someone with a royal bloodline who has been removed from the throne and then restore the person to that throne – to a position of honor.” (p.99)
I don’t know why Mark pretends to be “cool”
freakin a…. that baptist stuff can’t be hidden..
My husband and I also had a horrible experience with Mars Hill. You can read our story at marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
The problems with Sovereign Grace Ministries did not come to light until people came out of the shadows and told their stories.
For those who shared their stories, or parts of them, we would like to share them at our blog.
“Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with XXX.”
“Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with K and share it with XXX and Pastor X”
I look foreword to reading this in Mark’s next book. How many pats on the back is the pastor who wrote this getting right now? Lucky guy.
If you’re involved in ANY church or mentorship which does this type of discipline contract or extreme disciplinary action, you may be in an abusive church or cult. It’s time to walk away.
Mark Driscoll is a very sexist fundamentalist and I’m sure there are a lot of abusive stories that will come from his church. So sad.
That just scares me. That’s not accountability, that’s not even on the spectrum of accountability. That’s bullying
Does anyone else find it creepy that they wanted him to detail his sexual sin on paper? For what purpose? The case could easily be made that the pastors are voyeuristic pervs. And hey, there’s nothing like a paper trail for some future church staff member to discover someday.
This is wrong on so many levels.
I agree Todd, creepy is just the start. For what purpose? Control and future control through blackmail and intimidation.
I agree Todd. I was appalled by this story and the church’s actions. For those that have posted defending this church’s behavoir I want to remind them that Christ died on the cross for everyone’s sins and that all God requires of somone is asking for forgiveness. The fact that this Church refuses to forgive one of it’s own (even though God has) and they require a signed contract… wow. And the tone they take is not one I would expect. Major creepy.
Whoa. What’s with all the sex details? Did we read different bibles? I don’t recall Jesus or Paul stating that you must offer up all the dirty details of your sin as part of discipline. Did Jesus ask that of the prostitute? I believe he said go and sin no more. This is control, plain and simple. This guy is now not allowed to have any privacy or decency. How can anyone call that good and healthy? Not to mention, how about the risk of temptation to the person elected as his accountability partner? Good lord. This is why people hate religion. There is no love. It is all about controlling and manipulating people.
Great contract!
What a wonderful opportunity for the men at Mars Hill to lead!
Leadership by example!
Starting at the top on down.
First, the head visionary and executive elders/pastors should sign the contract.
Then, the rest of the so-called elders should follow suit.
A private investigative firm outside of the church, so that neutrality and true accountability is maintained, should be retained to ensure true transparency and compliance with the contract.
Only after proving themselves “above reproach” in this way should any elder sit in judgment against a non-elder who violates the terms of such a contract.
“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone…” — Jesus
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for men to see… they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’ But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Woe to you, blind guides!” — Jesus
EXACTLY! It needs to start at the top and they need to lead by example. So the church leaders need to openly list all of their sins on a contract and sign it and share it with the church members. Only then would it make having church members do this even remotely doable. And believe me, the church leaders have sins to list… we all do. The word we are looking for here is “hypocrites.”
now it makes sense! When Jesus bent down to draw in the sand, He was actually drawing up a church discipline contract.
There are so many unanswered questions in this story. Of course we are only getting one side of it. And we don’t know if the girl is under church discipline. But to me the red flag is with the contractual language. I don’t see church discipline falling under the contract paradigm. Instead, the biblical paradigm is “covenantal.” There is a huge difference between the two. There is nothing in this “contract” that states clearly how the leadership of the church will minister, support and invest in this young man or in the woman, for that matter. It’s all about what he will or won’t do.
I’m not saying that discipline is not needed in this case. I’m not a leader in this church. So I don’t know. (Although I want to ask if they take an equally hard line on disciplining those who are gluttons, a sin that gets mentioned in the Bible a bunch.) But this is not the kind of discipline I would offer as a church leader. Restorative church discipline is as costly to the the leadership doing the disciplining—maybe even more so—than it is to the person being disciplined.
Where are the broken hearts? Where is the shepherd’s compassion? Is it there? I don’t see it in the “contract.” I hope it’s really offered in person.
BTW-this is not leadership theory to me as I’ve been a part of a team that had to do “covenantal” discipline. But that’s another story.
I would not sign a contract like that. Seems to give new meaning to the word ‘legalism.’ I seem to remember reading about those who are spiritual restoring…
Then Jesus said to the woman at the well…” I will give you living water if you sign this contract that you will leave the man you are living with and go back to your first real and only husband.”
Then the Samaritan man said to the beat up guy lying on the side of the road…”I will take care of you if you sign this paper promising me that you will pay me back and tell the other Jews that Samaritans are that bad after all.”
Then Jesus said to Peter…”I will restore you to leadership if you sign this document that says you will never, ever again doubt me or deny me.”
The point? Restoration is based on God’s grace and unconditional love…Mars Hill does not sound like a place that understands this at all….
Amazing….
This is about Power
Love and Power our oppositional correlated. You don’t hold power over someone to show love. Principle of least interest, who ever loves the least has the power. So Jesus enters our world to show love by laying down his power, not implementing it.
Phil 2 demonstrated this ” (Jesus) Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant…”
The Church through history is been at its best when adheres this basic Jesus theology that the incarnation demonstrated, thinking and acting toward other sacrificially. The Church is been at its worst when it has had real power, political or otherwise. The Church is at it’s best when it’s has nothing but Jesus and lives out faith sacrificially. I think that ethos of “power” is what rightfully is giving off the “something isn’t right ” vibe.
(and hard core Calvinist, your “Boy” J Calvin put people to death in Geneva who disagreed with him… think that might bleed through to his writings?)
I believe in church disciple, done in love for restoration (matt 18). It seems like MH is working off a power paradigm here. No straw men please… when you have to play a “people don’t want to follow Scripture anymore” card. FAIL! Remember the Pharisees and Sadducees had high “standards” then Jesus. When Pastors become “scriptural attorney” to win, everyone loses.
Stay big picture… how did Jesus restore Peter?
To each their own. For me, this is insane. Any attempt to connect this to Biblical discipline is an enormous stretch. Driscoll is a power tyrant. I have worked on church staffs for the same. The damage is indescribable. I could go in, but I need to go vomit. So disgusted.
Do any of you realize that your attempt to push your views on the leadership of Mars Hill Church, aschurch you’re not affiliated with at all, is its own form of piety and self-righteousness?
It’s one thing to say that you’ll never go to MHC or buy a Driscoll book and that you’ll tell everyone you know to do the same.
It’s another to sit around and pontificate about what MHC should do and what theology they should hold.
Who are you to determine that?
LOLOLOLOLOLOL step back in lines sir. Thinking for yourself will not be appreciated in your church.
I don’t go to MHC.
On a side note, is Christianity all about “thinking for yourself?”
Thinking for oneself, not hold to orthodoxy, creeds, or confessions, without any form of accountability, without submission to elders (that’s biblical) is what leads to heresy and rogue leaders.
You may argue that MHC is a cult, but I’d challenge you to show that their practices aren’t the norm and that what you have in mind for church governance is.
Matthew,
Please correct me (no pun intended) if I am wrong on what I am about to write. I looked for, but did not see any mention that you interviewed or sought out anyone from the staff of Mars Hill to corroborate Andrew’s story. 1 Timothy 5:19 says:
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.
It would seem that it isn’t a great stretch to apply this to confronting church leadership in a church that was not clearly heretical.
Let me be clear, I don’t dislike Mark Driscoll, but I also don’t have any major affinity for Mars Hill or the way they do things (I’m a Wesleyan and a pastor at a United Methodist Church). That said, working at a church, I also know how skewed the viewpoint of a congregation member can be when they perceive that they have been mistreated. A lot of the quotes from Andrew in your blog read like that. It seems appropriate when taking a certain church to task with how they handled the situation that a brother or sister would first check with that church to see if the story described was indeed the case.
You may have done that, and if so, please correct me.
David,
He doesn’t need to go to the church for their opinion or side on how they handled it, he has it. The church’s own documentation. That is what this is about, the contract. That is enough evidence for me to know that the church is way off base and not in line with Christ’s teaching on repentance or forgiveness. The fact that any Christian would defend this church’s behavior is shocking to me to say the least. God will forgive Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll, but he may want them to write down all their sins for all at the church to see and then sign a written contract… See how ridiculous that sounds? Of course that isn’t the way it works. Read the words of Christ. Forgiveness, love, mercy and grace.
Good grief! This is the activity of a cult. I mean seriously – this is 60 Minutes material.
Any person who is ever presented with a contract of their sins should run like hell away from the cult leader demanding it.
btw MPT, this is the kind of story that should go to Newsweek – just a suggestion.
bc
Seems like the inquisition to me! Cult, cult & cult. I don’t care how they quote scripture or use the “bible”, that is one hell of a controlling church. Doesn’t seem like much “freedom in Christ” to me. Leaders like that think they are God’s holy spirit…I’m sure there is little freedom in that fear crazed environment.
Reminds me of the one I escaped.
I suppose the verse “love covereth the multitude of sins” never came to mind…why should it when the “pastor” can use the judgmental & hurtful bible verses to manipulate & shame others with the goal to more easily control them.
Controlling, narcissistic religious power plays…I’ve seen that shit before.
Andrew, thanks for sharing your story. That’s just plain ole religious abuse you experienced. I’m sorry you got sucked into such an abusive religious environment. I hope you find healing from the damage that has been done to you.
I hope people leave these prisons that call themselves “churches”.
No good God is like that.
“Andrew met and eventually began dating the daughter of a church elder at Mars Hill” Ay, there’s the rub. It was a CHURCH ELDER that he cheated on. I wonder how much of this would have occurred had it been a regular church member.
Excuse me a CHURCH ELDER’s daughter he cheated on.
MH wants a detailed account of ALL his previous sexual history?! Well, it sure does sound like MH – obsessed with sex, obsessed with thinking about sex, obsessed with talking about sex, obsessed with making everyone but married men feel shameful about sex. If he had confessed to a habit of telling white lies, I’m willing to guess that the elders wouldn’t want a list of all the lies he ever told… but they sure will jump at the chance to read the intimate details of someone’s sexual exploits in the name of “church discipline”!
And the poor ex-fiancee can’t even get counseling/support from her own peers, because MH young women aren’t allowed to hang out together on their own without the supervision of an older woman or (preferably) a man. (Young women apparently gossip too much on their own, and should be home with fathers or husbands or children.) So all her support is supposed to come from her father or a woman her grandmother’s age. (And while grandmothers can give very good advice and support, I think most younger women will admit that it’s helpful to have a peer speak into these sorts of situations…)
As someone who works with a lot of Christian college students in Seattle, I’m beyond disgusted with the way that MH warps people’s minds. I’ve known of too many female freshmen who end up dropping out of college because either (a) they’re told they’re “stealing from future husbands” by taking out student loans or (b) they get engaged to a MH guy and are no longer allowed to hang out with other freshmen women. Female bible professors and chaplains at a (Christian) Seattle college are openly denigrated by male students attending MH.
Few thoughts…
First, I wonder if the girl had to sign any contract admitting her portion of this. I’m guessing not because of the whole idea of the woman being led into sin by the man (which strikes me as ridiculous anyway).
Second, legally speaking, this isn’t a valid contract. There is no consideration or bargain for exchange. I know nobody is arguing this, but the misuse of the word “contract” is irritating.
Third, reading this whole ordeal reminded me why I left organized church. Judgments, self-righteousness, your-sin-is-worse-than-mine crap. I would’ve started laughing by the third meeting and found my way to the door. I think Jesus would have gone with me.
I know everyone is probably itching to hear Mars Hill’s side of the story, but bear in mind that the church is under no obligation to answer to a random blogger and his following.
Who “disciplines” Mark for using his position to beat his wife over the head with twisted bible teaching about sex? (We now know because of the his latest book which reveals all) Who disciplines him for his lack of the fruits of the spirit as a minister? Who disciplines him for his porno divinations about people having sex? Oh, no one close to him who can hold him accountable on a daily basis, that is for sure.
Mark is a Nicolatian. Read Rev….they are taking over people.
This is a cult. Bullet points 4, 5, and 6 would allow MH to generate a list of other “sinners” that they can also black mail.
If you are trying to be sympathetic, you are doing a really terrible job of it.
My post was in reply to a comment that disappeared so that is why it makes no sense.
Just curious…
What discipline was Andrew’s fiancé subjected to for her part in all this?
I was involved the Reality network of churches. A vibrant, healthy family of churches lead by some wonderful, humble, spirit filled people who never thought it was their right to tell others what they could or couldn’t do in this context. They were always available to counsel and help but always out of love never as authoritarian.
I left Reality at the end of 2010 sadly to relocate for work. I ended up at a Mars Hill church plant core group in early 2011 as I thought it was somewhat similar. It took me and my wife all of 3 or 4 months to figure there was something twisted about this place. I’ve never heard the words “reformed” & “the elect” and “Calvin” more in my life than those 4 months. And never seen a church suppress the Holy Spirit more. Worship was empty, heavy and solemn.
When we decided we needed to leave, we had something similar attempted by church leadership. Paraphrasing but they essentially called our ability to discern the holy spirit, the authenticity of our faith and our motives for leaving into question. And insinuated that we may not be hearing the holy spirit at all but in fact may be listening to the spirit of the enemy. If we weren’t mature Christians these tactics may have worked. They told us that we needed to submit ourselves for questioning so THEY could determine what God’s will was for us and whether or not we were hearing from the Lord or the enemy. I am sure the questioning would have lead to discipline if we had allowed it.
Mars Hill likes to play earthly surrogate for Jesus. It likes to supervise and approve repentance, validate motive and forgiveness and generally take over your life.
We weren’t even members but they tried to demand that we be reconciled to the community because we attended and were therefore responsible to the church.
It was the weirdest most bizarre thing I’ve ever seen in my life. The draw of community is potent though and Mars Hill suffocates relationships outside of CG so that you are so dependent on MH CG that you will jump through hoops like this poor kid did to retain it. Ultimately they want your community group to become your family so even when the abuses start coming (because they will) the draw of your spiritual family is too strong to think straight.
But we did not drink the Kool-Aid so were able to see through it. Sad that so many young men and women are being targeted by the Driscoll promotion machine and swallowed up by it.
Our prayers are with them. Heck my prayers are with Driscoll and all his people too But more importantly those suffering abuses in that church… may the Holy Spirit lead them to the same scripture he took us to when pleading for clarity
Jeremiah 23: 16 thru 32
UNReformed
Wow. This is the third such story I’ve heard today. This is very well known church. Driscoll appears on CNN. How I’m I jsut finding out this is a cult?
I think it has a lot to do with how they treat people on their way out.
We were made to feel crazy, ashamed and guilty as though we were horrible people for not wanting to attend there anymore. I watched too many tears fall from my wife’s eyes and wasn’t even trying to cause beef one way or the other. I just wanted to take my family somewhere else. But they wanted to approve our reasons for leaving and ultimately make the decisions for us whether or not it was God’s will.
It’s weird but it took a good week and half away from everything before I realized they had no right. A closed system community can have powerful influence on your mind.
I assume a lot of the younger people walk away broken and jaded and take years to put themselves back together. It’s gnarly and hard to believe. But it is real.
This church cult sounds so much like the one I escaped from…..
I was church disciplined, told to watch out for “God’s fiery indignation”….all because we no longer wanted to attend THAT church. We disagreed with the preacher & became anathema.
The leader of the cult I escaped was also very calvinistic, though he would probably deny it & just stress “I preach sovereign grace!” but in the olden days he had his bible tracts on TULIP…guess he thought we had forgotten those because it was so long ago.
It was Calvinistic, morose, depressing, overly solemn….no JOY at all. The focus was always on our sins & depravity & imperfections. (though the pastor may have preached “grace” it was always tinged with anxiety making & guilt) You could never measure up, E V E R.
Scary stuff. Surely, each of our church has it’s level of weird.
That said, it seems like whatever happened between the subject of this article, the girlfriend, and this third party had been dealt with thoroughly. The continued meetings and contract were well outside the bounds of what I’d consider typical.
I think everything you need to know about this cult can be summed up in the following interview line:
“He even volunteered on Sundays as church security.”
Since when does “church” need a “security” detail?
Cult.
Plenty of churches have security – sometimes it’s due to problems of theft from vehicles in the parking lot or other nuisance criminal behavior from people not part of the church itself.
Yeah I know….we need to follow the example of Jesus……
Oh wait….Jesus didn’t have security……
“Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses”
Good one. Worthy of Driscoll. The Bible is speaking of REAL elders. Not false teachers who have porn divinations. A title is not enough, friend. Anyone can get a “title” of elder if they want one bad enough.
The contract can be considered one of the “witnesses”. It is documented proof. Besides there are too many MH horror stories floating around to worry about that. And we have Driscolls own words in sermons that speak to his depravity and twisted teaching on several fronts including sodomy and his rape of SoS. Not to mention his belief that the Cross was not enough for women to escape deception when Born Again. We also have the “witness” of his I See Things video of porn divinations.
Driscoll is his own” witness”, btw.
We have plenty of “witnesses” for this “elder” who is the poster boy for a Nicolatian and problem outlined in the book of Jude.
I have a really hard time feeling something for someone who spent this many years in that church and only started questioning when it effected them personally. This church has a well documented history of being fucked up. So, yeah, cry me a river.
It’s a cult: http://robertcargill.com/2012/01/24/how-much-more-evidence-do-you-need-mark-driscolls-mars-hill-church-is-a-cult/
If Mars Hill is a cult then I gather the New Testament church is a cult as well. FYI I’m not a member of Mars Hill I just thought the article was ridiculous sensationalism based upon some American individualistic style of Christianity that doesn’t reflect the scripture nor the history of the Church.
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him. (Proverbs 18:17 ESV)
I don’t know Mark Driscoll. I’m not associated with his church, Acts 29, the reformed movement or any organization he leads. So, I’m not writing in support of him. However, I think you owe the guy the benefit of a phone call or an email. A legitimate journalist checks his facts and corroborates his story before publishing it. And as a follower of Christ, I think you’re guilty of gossip against him if not something worse. This kind of article, written based on the story of one disgruntled former church member, not corroborated by a plurality of others, giving its victim no opportunity to respond or comment, is simply wrong.
Please stop tearing down the church. Go and talk to Mark Driscoll. Go talk to the poor girls this miscreant victimized. Do your due diligence before writing a smear article against your brother in Christ.
Les – You should have stopped your email after “you owe the guy the benefit of a phone call or an email.” Because when you say “go talk to the poor girls this miscreant victimized” you’re making assumptions of something you don’t know.
You admit you know nothing of the particulars here but make the assumption the guy was disgruntled church member who is a miscreant that victimized poor girls. I think you should do your own due diligence before you smear your brother in Christ. You’re making the same assumptions you accuse others of, including being guilty of gossip.
Those comments were based on the guy’s own admissions of guilt. Fair game.
You sound like a nice guy, Les. You want to meet for coffee and discuss your mean spirited comment about me? I’m willing. But warning: You’ll probably like me. Because I’m actually a decent guy. I have flaws. But we’d probably get along.
I’ll admit that “miscreant” could be a little strong. But how was my comment mean-spirited toward you? I’ll have coffee with you, but it seems like you should have a cup with Driscoll first. They have some decent shops in His neck of the woods.
Not fair game. If anything, the relationships were consentual. Those who’ve wondered if the elder’s daughter was subjected to the same “church discipline” have a fair point.
Regardless, you can’t call people to take the high road on one side and then run the other guy into the ditch on the other. The adjectives you use betray your bias. Because to read your post it sounds like in your world some brothers in Christ are more deserving of fair treatment than others. You don’t know the details. In that case, integrity demands you apply the same standard to both sides.
Not the case at all. Sorry that my use of the word “miscreant” threw off the intent of my comment. My problem with this article is that it’s completely one-sided. It’s nothing more than gossip.
BTW, you are making my point for me. We don’t know the details and integrity does demand that we apply the same standard to both sides but in this case we can’t because only one side is presented.
Well said; right on.
I was replying to Todd’s comments, but that seems to get obscured by the way comments are posted.
It’s just a good thing that Jesus doesn’t have the kind of list for us that that contract had for Andrew. I’m afraid none of us would make it into heaven!
So, this is what I’ve gotten from this post: Mark Driscoll, his Mars Hill Church, as well as MANY others just like this are…(wait for it)…(drum roll)…CULTS! I don’t understand how, in this day and age, SO MANY PEOPLE fall for this crap!!! It’s sickening, disgusting, and outright WRONG. It’s so difficult for me to see that there are SO many people who fall for this CRAP. In this age of information technology, I have to ask: what were you (any of you) thinking? It’s BULLSHIT!!!
This is repulsive. Repulsive, disgusting, and inexcusable. This is not repentance. This is exploitation and humiliation. This young man sinned, and his sins do have repercussions on the community. But this kind of treatment is neither repentance, nor is it helpful. This is not how rehabilitative or constructive or in any way in alignment with the message of the Gospel or the model of the Christ.
This is ego and power.
And the pretense that women are “weaker vessels” is as sexist as it is disgusting as it is repugnant to the Scriptures.
This church and this pastor make me sick. Shame on them.
How do you know that any of this is true?
where is jesus in any of this?
Here’s the real contract he needs to sign. If he wants to truly be redeemed, Andrew needs to agree to this:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/79295745
Do people who envy, gossip, get angry at or hate their brother (which is compared to murder in the Bible), lie, cheat, destroy others with their words, etc. also get treated this way? Do they have to list every time they have ever gossiped about someone or had a hateful thought on a contract? Because God doesn’t see this guy’s sexual sins as any different than these other sins. If we were all perfect, Christ wouldn’t have had to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins while we were still sinners. This sounds like a power addiction to me on behalf of the leaders. Dangerous. But I wasn’t there so I really don’t know. It did trigger for me a lot of terrible memories from the first church I went to as a new believer. Both as someone being expected to participate in meetings, accusations, pressure to repent, shaming, against other “sinners” and then eventually me being in the hot seat and then ostracized. Took years, much therapy, and a healthy, grace-filled, Bible-based environment to get me to even be able to drive by a Christian church without having a panic attack. My prayers to Andrew for healing, peace, and finding a Christian community where he can actively experience the kindness, mercy, and unconditional love and grace of God from the elders on down. And my prayers to MH and their leaders as well. That they too would experience those very same things on a personal level.
To Andrew and others who find themselves in similar situations, please know that there are people in the Seattle area, and around the country, who are committed to working specifically with faith based folks who have found themselves tied up in abusive institutional structures. Speaking from experience, there are religious leaders locally, nationally and internationally who say they are guided by Biblical standards, when in all actuality, they are guided far more by their mental illness. We want to try and help those trying to recover from that kind of leadership.
http://whenthechurchhurts.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/does-anyone-own-a-dsm-iv/
I don’t think I will have the most popular response. However, this is only one side of the story. It would be interesting to understand what the church leaders reactions were.
I speak as someone who is now 26, has been in leadership, has been on the receiving end of the second stage of church discipline before, and have had to deal with people my own age in a similar situation. That said, I think I have a good grasp of what someone my age might be saying or doing when confronted like this. In all honesty, my reaction probably would be to present the story in a way that would make myself look the best. I appreciate his humbleness to say that he is not innocent in this matter, and there might actually be a judgment problem, that happens from time to time.
I think it would be important to get both sides of the story. The only reason I decided to write this was because it seemed like their was an unbalanced voice. There is no one here to defend the actions done by the leadership, and we really don’t know. Please realize that I am not defending everything Driscoll or Mars Hill does. But as far as I am concerned, this is just gossip until there is more evidence.
I know that this comment may be unpopular here, and I know that I might get a lot of flack. However, can’t we as Christians show diligence and not jump to conclusions until we have all the facts? If this is indeed how it was handled, then I agree that it is alarming; he repented far before he was taken to the pastor. However, if there is even a chance that some of the story is missing or altered or added to, then we need to be humble and diligent and not speak ill.
As someone who at the same age as you who grew up in a similar situation…all I ask is this? What makes any sin greater than another? Shouldn’t everyone get a contract for every little thing that we do? Do we really as Christians have the right to judge another or put someone under a contract?
If one looks at it the right way, Jesus Christ in all His glory is the only one that can pass judgment and truly bring about a change in this guy’s life. Forcing it as a leader is uncalled for. On top of that, it seems like they were judging him when he first for one, stopped himself in that situation (not an easy thing to do) and also of his own free will confessed not only to his fiance but also to others, becoming the one accountable. He didn’t hide his sin and he did all this out of his conscience or by the bending down of his own will to listen and see what he might have done wrong. At this point, it is between him and the Heavenly Father and if then he chooses to seek out leadership to stay accountable so he doesn’t fall into the same then that is his decision.
In regards to the other side of the story, Mark Driscoll and the leadership at MH have repeatedly stated their side of things and though they may have some wonderful qualities and leadership abilities, everything he does is also not right or accountable himself, especially considering the amount publically put out immediately due to mass social media. Should one not also look at that and “draw” up a contract for accountablility and the sins of the leaders? What about the fiance? Is she also facing the same contract?
I say this not in judgment to either. I am not the one to judge. I have watched one of my family members go through Church discipline and honestly..I feel like it did so much more damage than good in my families lives. Jesus is the only one who can truly bring us to life.
Jaime,
As far as whether we are to judge others inside the church or not, I think we not only have the right, but we have the responsibility. Paul said,
“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I have seen people say they have “repented”, and there was no actions done on their part for restoration. I don’t know this situation. Perhaps, he really showed remorse and was taking actions to show his repentance; however, I am not in the circle of leaders at Mars Hill to even know what they were thinking or seeing. If he was really repentant, and he was raked through the coals without even giving them an attitude; then it is indeed frightening that this happened. However, we are only hearing one side of the story.
Also, you said that Jesus is the only one who passed can pass judgment, yet it was Jesus who taught us how to conduct church discipline (Matthew 18:15-20). I guess it is what you mean by judgment. We have no right to tell someone whether or not they are going to heaven or hell. We certainly have the right to judge their actions if they are in the church and calling themselves a professing Christian.
I don’t know about the fiance. I would say that she should have received similar treatment. I don’t know that she didn’t. I have been at a church where guys were blamed for every situation like this, and the women got off free. I am very familiar with this teaching. It is a poor teaching, which Proverbs actually refutes; I have not heard Driscoll preach this, but he is wrong if that is what he is teaching. I don’t think any church is perfect, and when you are dealing with people, errors in judgment are bound to happen. I really don’t know the situation, but I am not going to judge a church and it’s leadership based on a disgruntled member who was forced to sign a contract.
I have had church discipline acted on me; I know very well how hard it can be on families and churches. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t need to be done. In my case, it wasn’t even based on a sin issue; it was based on a teaching issue.
Buddy,
I agree with most of what you said, and wanted to commend you on your “let’s not jump to conclusions” approach. Yes, there should definitely be research done for sure. Part of the problem is that most people won’t do it, and those who will are often not trained to do it well. Frankly if it wasn’t an issue that I’m passionate about, I might be one who just plops a blog post or comment down to make myself feel better, and then walk away. So I’m guilty of not researching that which other people care immensely about, but I care little about. I will also be honest and tell you that your comment angered me too in that, IF the contract is posted word for word, some of the facts are laid out very clearly in the post. We will often pass right over the facts of abuse in order to confuse the situation and not have to deal with it. What I just said comes from someone who has been severely abused and taken advantage of by church leadership who made up their own “facts” to confuse the congregation and absolve themselves from any responsibility.
I don’t know who Andrew is or what he has really done or been through, but I can tell you that if there is even an ounce of truth to what he is saying, he likely feels like he just risked his life to speak up…and he may have. Victims of abuse are used to people staring at the truth/facts and only seeing what they want. As can be the problem for any of us.
Botolff,
I am right there with. I have been abused in a church before too. However, just because the process was abused, doesn’t mean that the process is any less important or unnecessary. It is easy to get our emotions stirred up in a story like this and take sides without understanding the whole situation. I hardly believe that anyone at Mars Hill would take his life; so, I don’t believe he has risked his life. We don’t know his actual identity; so his reputation hasn’t even been risked.
I don’t mean to be harsh on Andrew. What he said, could be very alarming. If he showed attitude or was unrepentant in the first few meetings, I don’t think that contract is really all that harsh.
Honestly nothing on the contract seemed bad. All seemed to have a heart for a restored relationship with the Lord. It helped restoration of hurt relationships and exposed sin. People who get caught in sin dont like it to be exposed. Many people that responded, responded with extreem anger and sarcasm. Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
I wouldn’t sign it… If I was sorry I would repent and not do it again, signing a piece of paper will not make a guy more sorry.
I feel horrible for this young man. He has confessed his sin, why do they feel the need to continue on with the meetings, confessionals and repeated beating down of this young man? I wonder if the woman was treated the same way? Probably not, she was probably coddled and congratulated in her sin. Did she get a contract too? Despicable.
This is NOT proper discipline. This young man WAS REPENTANT of his sin being that he already confessed it and wanted help. This should be looked into, this is not the proper way to deal with saints in sin.
so why not sue for liable?! if someone published this about me and defamed my character to thousands of people I’d sue!
Can’t believe I am saying this because I don’t even like Mars hill but this is an extremely biased account of events and everything is just speculation of what is assumed to be accurate details to this depiction of events.
Even by this story I see an individual who has a pattern in his life and self proclaimed christian beliefs.He was in ministry/ leadership, held to a higher standard James 3:1 and yet he did hide his sexual relations with his fiancee for several months prior to cheating on her.
Accountability isn’t just a “oh hey we talked about this for a couple weeks and now your good to resume your position of ministry over others.” Also when it is mentioned that people started to treat him differently. Well what did you expect? You cheat on your fiancee and then expect every one to act peachy about it? Not many social contexts out there that your not gonna get a negative reaction.
Even by this account there was a patient process that was followed and it appears that the people of the church sincerely wish for this young man to reconcile with their community.
A very harsh and disappointing outcome for what could have been resolved so much smoother. Hopefully Andrew has learned the consequences of giving into his flesh and hopefully the church will be wiser in their future attempts of restoration!
Wow. I wish I’d been calm enough to write this after reading the story and most of the comments. Thank you, drd.
Who died and made this church God
Since when has a church ever been able to hold someone to something, or had legal authority to bind someone to a contract of sorts? Just walk away, try your hardest not to flip the bird over your shoulder, and realize that setting healthy boundaries with people should probably be exercised in a church setting as well.
I agree, but it’s hard. Surely he’s got a lot of friends there and they are being told not to assoicate with him. I’ve known people who’ve gone through that. It isn’t easy.
As a former Mars Hillian, I understand where they are coming from, and I have to agree with whoever said that Andrew chose to go to this church and put himself under the leadership there. He chose to be accountable to the people in his community group. It’s not like he didn’t know what he was getting into. When you go to community group, you decide to be real with one another and help each other through difficult situations. To chose to be seen as the victim now is pretty lame on his part. It’s also really lame that there aren’t more churches that have accountability like Mars Hill. If I was the fiance, I would be glad that my church was holding my future husband accountable, and that I wasn’t alone in such a devastating and sticky situation. Grace is needed, yes, and I trust that grace will be used in this situation because I trust Mark’s heart and calling to lead men. I’d much rather be engaged to someone under these circumstances than be told he cheated on me, and just have to deal with it on my own outside the context of church and support from people who really love me and him. If Andrew is wise, he will listen to correction and do what is necessary to repent and deal with all his issues. If he wasn’t at Mars Hill, what would happen? He’d get away with the infidelity and likely seek it out again in the future. They’re saving him from future destruction. Pretty awesome if you ask me.
well said!
“It’s not like he didn’t know what he was getting into”
That’s not how cults work. They aren’t upfront about the control and psychological torture they inflict in people. Fundamentalist Christianity has almost perfected the practice of sucking in people with seemingly harmless and fun activities and a sense of community. Then, when you begin to notice to restrictions and immorality, they have a hold on you so tight that it can be hard to leave.
As for the rest: bullshit. He got a bad conscience and told his fiancee. In the process others learned, but he told her. She didn’t hear it second hand from elsewhere. This should never have gone beyond the two.
Excellent Steve.
You are spot on!
Nobody knows what they are REALLY getting themselves into when it comes to abusive church cults.
The manipulations are done in increments…….
I bet what goes on in the inside of any abusive church is NOT the image
they present to society in general or to outsiders.
Keep all of that cruelty …hush…hush…so the world can’t see what we really are.
In that type of toxic church environment fear reigns…& it aint fear of God.
It’s the fear of MEN…..fear of assholes like abusive pastors.
Exactly!
Oops…my enthusiastic “exactly!” was meant for Katie’s comment.
Mark has jumped the gun. Insisting lists detailing this man’s sin… on PAPER? I can see the church keeping tabs if this person is not or does’t repent and attempts to take his “road show” to another congregation. Like when John MCCarthur put out an open Letter about Gary Ezzo. But it is a little early for an itemized list for Mark, his staff and who knows who else to see?
Mark- where are your list of sins? and furthermore why are YOU still serving? eh? How is your list coming, Mark? you got one.. we all have lists.
This young man’s reputation is tarnished. And will very likely not get back the trust and honor he so freely gave away. knowing that this young man can not be trusted with is word and with my or any other persons daughter is enough punishment… chirstian values aside….. honor and trust is an atheist value as well.
HIs punishment is a natural consequence. A list of his sins will make him vulnerable for abuse.
If so…. Mark you can add yet another sin to your own list.
you say that the man is always to blame for consensual sex, but i’m willing to bet there’s more than enough shame to go around. her being the daughter of an elder may have protected her from some, but in what fundamentalist culture are women not demonized for sexual sin–even if they are the victims (and i’m not saying she is)?
mars hills’ outing andrew in public would certainly have steep ramifications for his fiancee. i wonder about the fallout she is experiencing, and my heart grieve for all the mishandling, abusive power, and lack of grace.
What sexual sin? They didn’t even have sex. At most they may have cuddled or something. They got emotionally very close and that’s it. Sure, there is the damage of the trust between them and that’s what it’s about, but this has nothing to do with sexuality.
Of course I wouldn’t be surprised if Mars Hill bought into that courtship/Quiverfull insanity where even having feelings for someone else makes a woman damaged goods.
I gather if Mars Hill is a cult then the person who wrote that article has a hard time with the “cult” of the New Testament…I’m sure it turns his stomach when Jesus and Paul talk about church discipline. FYI I’m not a member of Mars Hill I just thought the article was ridiculous sensationalism based upon some American individualistic style of Christianity that doesn’t reflect the scripture nor the history of the Church.
Total abuse of power. Never sign a contract like this. How many people got manipulated into signing one of these? I can imagine how it will be used as blackmail. How awful. Reminds me of the Christian Scientist cult.
I love how “authors” and “bloggers” have become the voice of correction in the church today. I wonder how many have ever carried the burden of leading Christ’s church in any capacity. And so much of this is pulling tares instead of planting something beautiful.
Matthew:
The church’s actions against “Andrew” appear to have exceeded the protections afforded the church under the First Amendment, esp. after he left the church and opted out of their “counseling.” The only way to stop this bullying is for Andrew to sue the church for harassment and defamation of character, etc. He has a moral obligation to do so, and I hope he sues and wins big.
Are we still pretending that pre-marital sex is sexual immorality? What year is this? Based on the story so far, this is a grotesque over-reaction. Even on the part of this fiance, much less the church. He ALMOST cheated. And then did the right thing by telling his fiance. If she wasn’t immersed in the toxin that is Mars Hill, she would have worked through this with him. None of the church’s business. He needs to leave and find a healthy spiritual home. I can recommend a couple in Seattle if he’s reading this.
That she was the daughter of a church “elder” probably complicated things a great deal. First off, it means she is probably brainwashed to a greater extent, but also that she is under a lot of scrutiny both from her father and the public. Her father probably had a great deal to do with how this went down
I haven’t read part two yet, but my advice would be to …
RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
What a Toxic and ‘Dead’ environment to live in!!! Get the fuck out of there before they completely destroy your life!!!
This saddens me greatly. And not just about MH or MD (I think honestly we give them way too much “air time”, but that’s another thing), but about this idea of church discipline. This idea of discipline in these two posts are not limited to MH, and have been around longer than MH. I mean, read some of the stories in the comments.
About the post, one thing that hit me, after the initial anger, was how little it seem those who were “disciplining” him had any relationship with him. They had positions of authority, and they used them to make sure Andrew fell in line with the churches idea of sin and repentance. This is not the idea of “leadership” that has been given to us by Christ. In fact, i’m pretty sure Jesus said the opposite (Matthew 20:20-28). Now don’t get me wrong, I believe some form of corrective action is important in a church community, but only by the authority that comes through relationship, not position or title. I mean, I hope someone in my community would call out on my bullshit if I am doing something wrong or harmful. But if I don’t know them? And if they are seeking me to fall in line rather than learn to walk better in the grace that has been given to me by Christ? This is why, I think, this is a story of spiritual abuse and control and not just discipline.
Mars Hill people are nucken futs
Mark Driscoll is a bully and a coward who gets his jollies by terrorizing the people he is supposedly called to care for. As a *pastor* he is a shame and disgrace to his profession. Better the miserable bastard should go sell used cars; that’s about the spiritual level on which he operates.
Only sexually repressed and sexually frustrated perverts would require him to WRITE IN DETAIL sexually explicit sins.
Would not a blanket statement of confession enough? Why so explicit? For who’s benefit? For who’s edification or information? Which elder, deacon, or CGL will be drooling over it?
I came from a church like this, where the dirtier and grittier the details were, the more we pretended to hate the sin, when really we thrived on it. It gave us energy and motivation. Sick.
Not so funny that Jesus casts our sins into the sea of forgetfulness, while this crew seems content to drudge it up and relive it.
That contract was written by perverts, to be read by perverts. While Mars Hill is not a false cult, it is committing textbook spiritual abuse.
Amen. It’s funny how many fundamentalists are sex obsessed freaks all the while madly projecting on others
If I know Mars Hill they are going to have people come on here and defend them in the comments.
I’d love to see that! I am not sure how this can be defended, but it would be entertaining to see someone try.
What I’d rather see is: “The pastor who did this to Andrew is out of line and has been assigned to clean the restrooms at MHC, using only his tongue.”
And elsewhere.
The problem I see here is that the guy truly did seem repentant. He confessed his sin voluntarily, not because he was “found out.” He seemed to want to do something about it.
For the elders to keep after him as though he were a “wolf” and require him to jump through so many hoops is emotionally exhausting. That’s not how you handle someone who is trying to repent of a sin. Even if church discipline in a legitimate Biblical concept (which I agree with!) it is supposed to church *discipline*, not church-accuse-someone-of-not-being-repentant-against-the-evidence-and-then-make-them-jump-through-tons-of-hoops.
Also, even if you agree with church discipline, surely you agree that they shouldn’t be trying to control whether he keeps dating this girl? If this had happened between me and my fiance, we would need to work out whether we could forgive each other and move on…not have the higher-ups decide for us that our relationship was over. That just seems weird. Young people who are engaged sometimes mess up physically. It’s because we’re human. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we should break off the relationship.
That is what’s controlling about this situation; not the fact that they believe in the concept of church discipline.
Agreed. I just don’t get. The pastors really have no place to get involved in the first place. But if they feel they have to do something, it should be some sort of couple’s therapy. Figure out if their relationship can be salvaged. Ultimately it’s her who needs to decide if she can forgive him. Not god and certainly not an pastor or church functionary.
But from what I can read between the lines, the real issue is that she is the daughter of a so-called “elder”. Her father seems to have done anything he could to sabotage the relationship.
This scenario happened to me, almost exactly, except that I am a woman. And then, I was an even younger woman. I was repentant of what I had done, to be sure, but my spirit was still crushed, while the person I “sinned with” went unpunished. I still don’t fully comprehend what happened to me. For my part, I confessed, repented, and tried to reconcile with the other’s family, who said to me: “God can forgive you, but I can’t; I’m just a man.” This man was an elder.
My punishment lasted months, I was forced to “testify” to a council of staff and peers (embarrassing), I was put on a type of surveillance, and I was essentially forced to keep confessing with numerous other people, to be assured that I was repentant and “healed.”
I’m all for reconciliation, repentance, and self awareness, but this kind of “discipline” has no biblical precedent!
This breaks my heart. Praying for Andrew. So thankful that Jesus forgave my sins once and for all and never required a contract with any man in order for my sins to be forgiven.
I have some reformed friends really into this form of church discipline, I always ask “why don’t you guys ever discipline guys for the I treat my wife like a piece of trash sin”? Hypocrites, it’s easy to pick on the sexual sins to create the moral high ground so that they look spiritual!!
Sexual “sins” are an easy place to start with when you want to control people. You can even get them for thought crimes. If you make up enough “sins” you can be 100% certain that they will “sin” again and come back for the “cure” – which of course only you can offer
I agree. It’s all hot topics isn’t it?
I am willing to bet that he was a virgin when he got married. That’s good, and the way it should be. But it’s very easy for people with that experience to look down on others. I know. I used to be one of those too. But thankfully God taught me to have grace and mercy for others.
This is why people leave Christianity. I would sooner become a happy pagan than continue attending that church. Also, I’d be happy to be the lion to Driscoll’s self-righteous golden dragon.
This looks eerily similar to an abusive church I was a part of for 4 years. I was the victim of similar treatment in that people my “church family” began acting differently toward me. It was subtle, but I knew because I had been on the “inner circle” myself and had seen the pastor paint people in a questionable light by making statements such as “I’m concerned about so and so because…” and then would proceed to list whatever accusation or thought he wanted to plant. I found out after was excommunicated about numerous lies he had spread about me during my time there, which corroborated my suspicions. Everything is super-spiritualized to throw people off the scent, but flat out and simple it is manipulative and humiliating. In my situation, I didn’t actually commit any type of sin, but people were still led to believe that I had some huge moral failure during my time there. (Some people were told I was incompetent while others were told I was looking at pornography. Another person told me that he left my “failing” to be vague, but the impression they were left with was that I had done something terrible and I was a reprobate. None of which was true.)
All that to say that i feel for this young man. Did he mess up? Yes. However, there was nothing loving or even remotely kind about the way he was dealt with. This is a person who was deeply involved and supposedly loved by this church, and then they turn around and start calling him a wolf? Please.. Assuming he was a wolf, I’m curious as to why the leadership isn’t asking the more important question, which is “Why did we, as the leaders of this church, lack the spiritual discernment to see something this crucial?” This tells me one of two things. Either he really was a wolf and the leadership just doesn’t have the spiritual juice to see anything (frightening thought), or they know he isn’t and they’re throwing around boisterous claims to make a display of power and keep people in line (even more frightening thought).. and I’m more inclined to believe the latter. Is he a wolf? Doubful. Is he simply a 25 year old male who just wasn’t careful in a situation? Absolutely. King David did far worse, but he wasn’t called a wolf. Just sayin..
I don’t believe this is how church discipline is supposed to work. I am an Independent Baptist and you don’t bring it up in front of everyone. It is between the persons involved and God and if their parents and or the pastor become involved then so be it but not every single person of the church!!!
I was a leader in children’s ministry. I was pregnant and not married. I went in front of the church with my sin. Read my blog (two parts) to see how a church can show the love of Jesus.
http://theatticonline.com/2011/09/05/she-cant-hide-this-2/
http://theatticonline.com/2011/09/06/she-cant-hide-this-the-rest-of-the-story/
“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi
Sounds like Mr. Driscol needs to read Mathew 18 again. It’s not about discipline, but forgiving others, as you have been forgiven.
Will someone please shut down the Mars Hill cult?
Two years ago I was put under church discipline at Mars Hill. My husband and I were having very serious issues in our marriage and were living separately, but still meeting together for therapy and to try and work thrpugh some things. I was taking complete ownership of my role in the brokenness of my marriage and continuing to see who I believe to be the same pastor Andrew saw, as well as another elder, weekly.. Despite this, when I refused to sign the contract I was asked to leave the church and a letter was sent to my community group and friends directing them to cut off all contact with me unless I contact them with the sole purpose of repenting.
I did not sign the contract, because I did not believe that what it was calling for me to do was the best thing for my family or for myself. The biggest problems that I had with it was that it required my husband and I to move back in together, within 3 days, despite having only had 2 counseling sessions and it required for me to discontinue seeing my therapist and start seeing one who they approved of, because they were certain of the guidance she would give me.
When I expressed that while I would continue meeting with them, I could not sign the contract as I did not believe it was right, I was told that they were wrong when they thought I was repentant and in reality, I had a rebellious heart. “Rebellious heart” being the bad word to women that “wolf” is to the men.
I felt bullied, misunderstood and rejected by the people I trusted the most.
It’s sad that this is their view of God and of the church. It’s sad that this is the environment that they have created there.
They never care about you. All they cared about was imposing their dogma on you and your relationship. That’s why it’s so absurd for pastors to give marriage or relationship counseling. At least in fundamentalist churches. For them it’s about people fitting into their boxes and behaving according to their doctrines. Not about fixing the relationship on its own merits
thanks for posting …
it seems that its better to hide your faults, sins and struggles at MH. wonder how many others desire to come forward with their baggage and brokenness at MH? Sounds like MH involvement was for their good…
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be flippant but you lost me at “volunteered on Sundays as church security.” What kind of church needs security on Sundays? This is why megachurches offend me on so many levels. This seems to encapsulate what’s wrong with the phony baloney “community church” movement. If your church is so prosperous that you’re buying fancy shmancy things and electronics and equipment and other treasure that you need to have a security detail to protect it, you’re doing it wrong.
This statement got me too…. And at first I thought they were talking security for “stuff”… But I think it is security for keeping unwanted PEOPLE out!!
OH I am sure you are right. Well, that’s even WORSE!!!!
Dear Andrew, RUN! Don’t walk… away from this form of performance based gospel. I had a similar thing happen to me without any physical contact with a pastor on staff, only the accusations of his jealous wife. I was told if I didn’t sign the contract we would be excommunicated in front of the whole church with our teenage children present! We were leaders in the church, we had problems, most people do in church but this was not the answer! These church types use Satan’s tactics of fear, shame and control, to keep face instead of loving the person and getting to the bottom of their issues, why? Because they have no clue how much the Father loves us. Come to Seattle Revival Center, we love drug addicts, sex addicts, homosexuals, prostitutes and home school kids who want to experience the real love of God not just religion! Come and watch the power of God’s love transform our lives. God has a good plan for your life!!!!!!!!!! We are located in New Castle. Service starts at 10:00. Long contemporary worship set, a great teaching of Love and freedom from our pastor Darrin Stott. Don’t give up on God, you have an amazing destiny.
I’ve read Part 1 and Part 2 each twice and have thought about this over the course of 2 days, mulling it over, and reading scriptures. My thoughts are:
While your writing says that Andrew felt guilty and admitted that he “messed up” and you did say that he repented multiple times, you don’t give us Andrew’s realization of his sin and heartfelt repentance. He admittedly has “sexual baggage” and fooled around with someone while engaged to someone else. To me, this is the sort of behavior that indicates a deep root of sin in that area; different than burning a batch of cookies and saying “oops, I messed up, sorry.” Church discipline isn’t obsolete but I think we need to look at the scriptures carefully. The reference to 1Cor 5:9-13 refers to the “worst kind of sexual immorality: a man with his father’s wife.” Matt. 18:15-18 regards when a brother sins against YOU personally. (neither of those apply here) Gal. 6:1-3 tell us to restore GENTLY those caught in a sin.
We only have one person’s side of the story here, and I’m not going to make any absolute statements. I think the extent of the discipline sounds severe, although I think some discipline is necessary. I believe that Andrew needs to be in some sort of accountability relationship to help him with his sexual issues. I hope that he will find healing from this situation, and allow Jesus Christ to be his most important relationship.
I think the fundamental problem is that by focusing on sin and morality that we are ignoring the gospel. The gospel frees from sin, frees us from our past. The truly disgusting part of this contract is its prurience: list in detail all your sexual sins for the pastor to read all about.
Have they no concept that our sins are paid for? He should be encouraged to feel whole and clean, forgiven for his infidelity (fundamentally and inexorably by Christ, and hopefully by his fiance as well.) The church should not be a burden to bear, but a place where we practice the union with Christ, God, the Spirit, and each other that we will experience in full in the next life.
”I can no longer condemn or hate a brother [or sister] for whom I pray, no matter how much trouble he causes me. His face that hitherto may have been strange and intolerable to me is transformed through intercession into the countenance of a brother for whom Christ died.” Bonhoeffer
I remember my xpastor foaming from the mouth from his cult….errr, I mean “true church” pulpit,
“some people have said that this church is a cult!!! Well I’ll tell you that I’m washing your brains for christ!!!”
He didn’t deny it, that his little fiefdom, was a cult.
That day was one of many where the cracks got bigger & bigger to see the sham that was the church cult I was a member of.
When “true churches” are more concerned with church discipline & bullshit sermons like my xpastor has taught with sermon titles such as
“Authority of the pastor” ”
“Relating to your Pastor”
“Knowing when to Keep Silence”
“The Battle for the Mind”
“Church Discipline”
“Church Membership”
“Church Attendance ”
It becomes obvious what the “church” at least THEIR CHURCH (personal fiefdom) is about….namely, THEMSELVES & keeping their narcissistic supply in tact & serving them.
It’s not about God, Jesus ,helping others or love…it’s an ego trip, power trip & anyone who disagrees with them is one of Satan’s minions. All of those blathering sermons by those supposed “men of gawd” with inflated egos mean NOTHING in the scheme of things in this hurting world of ours or in the next world.
Andrew’s supposed “sins” should have been overlooked, he was sorry..why couldn’t the leaders just let it go…you know, “love covereth the multitude of sins” right? That’s what the bible says. Why are they making it such a big deal….oh yeah, it’s a great way to control people & when others in that cult see how the “church leaders” raked Andrew over the coals, they are going to be scared shitless to think or to speak anything against the leaders, lest they “fall away”.
Andrew experienced abuse, spiritual abuse plain & simple.
I’m so glad to have escaped a hell hole very similar to that MHC. & I hope others can see it for what it is & get free.
Personally, I am praying for an end to Driscoll’s abusive, misogynistic ministry, but I have to comment on this verbiage: “many of Mars Hill’s men feel beaten down.”
While I sympathize with the “overreaction” clearly demonstrated in this article, overreaction is exactly what it was. That is not the darkest sin at Mars Hill. It is not the reason Driscoll should be removed from ministry. Spiritual violence against women and the LGBTQ community outrageously outweigh any frustrating/painful experiences men may undergo for stupid mistakes.
Totally agree Pete. Wasn’t trying to suggest that it’s the greatest sin of MH. But in some ways, I sort of wonder if one of symptoms of MH’s sexist environment is that it also demands “men lead. men be strong. men be manly.” and the “beating down” happens when they fail or refuse to submit to elders (who think of themselves as alpha spiritual leaders).
It’s late, so I’m not sure I’m making complete sense. But I agree with you.
The sexism that MH people speak of almost seems Puritan like, except there’s skinny jeans and hair wax involved.
That’s absolutely true, Matt. Good point. And I don’t think men should be treated any-which-way, simply because we have general privilege in society. I just have tunnel vision on the other issues. But you’re right – this is actually another negative result of misogyny. Hipster-misogyny ;)
Peace,
Peter
I am always amazed that people don’t see through this guy. I would sooner accept spiritual guidance from “The Situation”… Actually put them in the same category.
I can’t believe all the false, so-called “Christians” here who want to take a WORLDLY approach to this young man’s HEINOUS SIN!!!!1! For which he will surely BURN IN HELL!!!1!!
I bet there’s some demoncrats and libruls here, that’s the only explunation, the DEVIL is all up inside you!!!!11
Listen up, heathens!
JESUS loves you UNCONDITIONALLY, as long as you do EXACTLY what He says!
In Christian Love™,
Mrs. Judy O’Christian
Awesome
Mark Driscoll is one of the most sexually explicit preachers on a regular basis from the pulpit. John MacArthur (whom I’m not a fan of overall) is one of the few in the Neo-Calvinist cadre of Personality Driven Churches who is willing to call him out on it while John Piper, Albert Mohler and others only dare to suggest that maybe Mark Driscoll has a “difference in style.”
I wonder how many people have been offended, tempted or driven to sin by Mark Driscolls intemperence?
I wonder when that contract will be signed?
There’s no shortage in the church of Spiritual Abuse. The contract that they are using here is reminiscent of what would be done for a minster in active ministry who was caught in his sin without initiating repentence on his own. This is someone who evidenced remorse and came forward on his own.
The issue here is not “discipline” (read also “punishement”) The issue here is restoration. This is not something that requires multiple meeting with multiple people to where the “perpetrator” is emotionally and physically exhausted (a common tactic in spiritual abuse to break doen resistence). This is somethat that is dependent upon a person’s heart and others coming around to support and love with a goal to restoration. Coming forward and confessing is evidence of a contrite heart. “Contracts” become nothing more but clubs in the hands of the self-righteous and prurient to indulge in their own power games.
People wonder why institutional churches are losing 1 million people a year and 1,500 church workers a month … maybe there’s a clue here.
Thank you for reminding me why I don’t go to church and for convincing me to NEVER attend Mars Hill. We all deserve to die and nobody is without sin, so let’s not go about “stoning” each other. I can’t believe I wasted so much time reading all of these comments and wasting more by responding, but I’m so upset by the hypocritical, pious comments. I’m reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.
I have no right to judge and I acknowledge my own transgressions, as they are many. Still, I believe God uses the broken and imperfect as His vessel. Someone needed to say this and I felt compelled to do so. Enjoy interweb.
I have no association or really even contact with Mars Hill, so this is not personal.
This blog’s posting violates:
1Ti 5:19 “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.”
We live in a free country and the internet is certainly free, so people can say/do whatever they please.
But there are some irresponsible words against an elder (or two) of that church that should be corrected.
Never heard of such a contract before though…..
There are way, way more than two or three other stories of abuses by Mars Hill staff online.
I know…it’s such a reproach on the name of christ when people speak the truth.
/sarcasm off
What the hell “voice of correction”? nonsense! This type of abuse needs to be brought out into the open. Many preachers have become protestant popes, untouchables in their own little fiefdoms. There are no checks & balances for many pastors who are quite content that it be so.
How many “pastors” convince people they’ve been “called” of God?
Who is to validate that supposed “calling”? Because they say so? Because they are good speakers, like to talk, like to be the center of attention? People are just supposed to “trust” them because they say so by their supposed position of authority over others? I don’t buy the “man o gawd” bullshit anymore.
Why would anyone care about this other then people that want to peep into Andrew’s life?
Also, I wonder who Pastor X is……..
1 Corinthians 5. Read it.
As an elder of my church I have had to deal with church discipline as well. It is a valid biblical concept. Discipline, unlike punishment, focuses on helping the individual to eliminate barriers between themselves and God. These are the sinful behaviors. A one time indiscretion, while a sin, is not necessarily a pattern of behavioral sin, the unrepentant sinner. This man appears repentant, has confessed to those he sinned against, the fiance’ and hopefully the friend. At this point the church body should be attempting to help him by lifting him up and helping him restore a damaged realtionship with God and the ones he harmed. No where in the document shown is there any guidance given in how to do this. To me that is where this is wrong. Grace and brotherly love are absent. Christ teaches that if we absent it for one another God will absent it for us. This is the point of the parable of the unforgiving servant who would not forgive the little debt of his own servant when the king had forgiven a debt of the one so large it could never be repaid.
What do I think about guys who post blog posts like this? I would say generally they make me not want to read anything else they have to say. The post (along with others on the blog) is filled with sneering comments about Driscoll and associates. If this blogger wants to criticize someone, he should do it out of love and concern for them and for the church and not because he just want everyone to see how dumb the other person is and how smart he is, which is exactly how he comes across in his post.
What do I think about posting to the public a third party account of a one sided view of a situation that neither the blog poster nor the people reading the blog have any relationship to? I think it is unwise at best. Usually with issues like this where someone is offended, their side of the story is naturally going to be skewed. It’s not necessarily skewed, but more often than not, there is more to the story if you hear from the other parties involved. If the guy was genuinely wronged, then still it is probably best to move on, and not post the wrongs suffered to everyone and his brother on the web. If there is a specific individual who is going through a similar situation that you want to help by recounting what you have learned through the situation you went through, then fine, but posting it on the web is a smear campaign and not a service to the church.
What do I think about the situation as it was recounted? I don’t doubt that a lot of things were handled poorly by various individuals. We can’t just assume, however, that everybody involved had evil and oppressive motives because the collective experience of this guy was bad. On the other hand, there may be details that the guy recounting the story just “left out” that may have been cause for others to act in the way they did.
What do I think about a contract for church discipline? This particular situation was a serious sin. Having someone sign something saying that they will follow a certain course of action isn’t necessarily bad. I would consider this more of a choice that’s up to leadership of how they want to handle cases of church discipline. This is matter of rightly applying wisdom to church discipline and not a matter of moral right or wrong. It sounds like the blog poster and perhaps the person who underwent discipline have a low view of authority in the church, a fairly low view of repentance for public sins, and high view of personal autonomy.
I think it’s great that power hungry pharisee type leadership is exposed. I seriously hope this hierarchy of man-made power is destroyed by this post.
I would like to know where this his friends/brothers and sisters in Christ are during all of this. Why aren’t they confronting the leadership? Why aren’t they standing up for him? Evil rules when good people do nothing.
Because… Like the letter confirms: the elders’ ways are equal or the same as God’s way…
Sadly, many are bound in their own fear.
Looks like Rome! Now all Driscoll needs is a new purgatory!
While it definitely sounds draconian from the outside, I’m left wondering what has been left out. Andrew sins, and confesses. I haven’t heard the part where repentence kicked in. I haven’t heard where he actually apologized, in words, and requested forgiveness. He felt compelled to confess, which seems to be evidence of remorse, but again there is no evidence in the story that he reached out and said “what can I do to make this right?”
The measures taken seem to be out of line. But has anyone who has commented on this story ever been in rehabilitation for an addiction, like alcohol? A lot of the content I’ve seen comes right out of rehabilitation programs: name *all* your failings, get help from God and people, make it right with the ones you have hurt. It’s a judgment call whether Andrew was in a place of needing treatment for an addiction vs. needing someone to come alongside to say, “you’ve messed up, here let me help you.” And that’s a judgment call that everyone outside the situation can’t really make without getting more details.
Another detail we haven’t heard is whether the lady or ladies in question will also get the church discipline treatment. Mark Driskoll is traditionally tough on the men, but he has also said a few choice words to the women on occasion. But I expect that this would be kept as more of a personal matter, and not much detail will come out.
You got a good taste of Christian cultism. Such toxic doses of judgement all in the name of discipline are just masks for internal hypocrisy and guilt within that ministry. It is sad that Mark Driscol cannot empower the men of Mars Hill to be as badass as he is. This is the same scenario that plays out with any prominent ministry that eventually falls; a big bad shepherd and a bunch of robotic sheep. I know because I counsel hundreds of people in your same position. You were absolutely right in your description of the two pastors that you met with just wanting to abuse their power and throw their spiritual weight around. Learn from this and the moment you smell it ever again around any of God’s so called “special chosen…” run as fast as you can. J.K.
I fear that Mars Hill misses the entire point of Christian discipline. The point is restoration into the church. Discipline is only for an impenitent sinner who refuses the admonition of the elders. This young man was obviously penitent and should have been forgiven by the church body. There was really no need for the church to be involved in the first place because this was a private sin not a gross public sin. How many gossiped about it until everyone knew?
I agree with what mars hills motives are and if this is an error or heavy handed than I say great because I would rather error on this side of the issue than the majority of churches that would just shuffle something like this under the rug and basicly hand both of them over to satan on a platter. This article only reinforces my agreement with mark D and if you think for a second that because the girl was the daughter of a leader it was handled this way they are mistaken Mars hill atempts to protect all of there members from Wolfes like this guy. If the fool that wrote this belives that men cant force there will over women in the area of sex what planet is he from. This does not absolve the woman from blame in the situation but yes as god holds men to Higher acountability in the bible so does mars hill they belive in he bible not in mark driscol or there old religions false doctrines.
I read a coment above that just had the words mixed up I should reed Mark driscoll loves people so he disiplins them.
I have been called a wolf in this situation at MH before too. I was told to shut the f up and submit. I was spoken at “get thee behind me Satan”. I certainly have felt more condemned and shamed than loved and lead. I found out certain leaders were unsafe and others were safe. We need to talk. Email me. I still attend MH. I didn’t write it off. There is more to my story I need to share with you. There can be a possative outcome in this.
I think this is more about curbing any legal liability. As long as they have a”contract” in the file it shows they have taken “proper” steps to deal with it. Problem is that he broke a couple of the 613 laws (otherwise called sins) in the OT. Grace frees us from this nonsense and though this does not give freedom to sin, and there are still consequences for our actions.
You ask:
“So again, if you were in Andrew’s shoes, just a regular 25-year-old guy who messed up but yet repeatedly repented of his sins, would YOU sign this contract?”
This question isn’t backed up anywhere in your blog post. Where do you describe him “repeatedly repenting” of his sins? It implies that he repented the cheating. Then you add that he confessed to “being physical” with his fiancee. You don’t define what “being physical” means, but you were clear that his cheating didn’t involve sex – so I assume that he did have sex with his fiancee. Obviously Mars Hill views pre-marital sex as sin. Did he repent this sin? Maybe he didn’t feel that it was wrong – and this was the reaon for the church discipline?
I wish you would answer some of the legit questions that have been presented to you in the comments. Why don’t you actually have a conversation about this with your readers, instead of just presenting a completely one-sided story.
I’ll admit that I met my husband and was married at an Acts 29 church that I LOVED. It is pastured by a man who is also in leadership in the Acts 29 network. I also have friends that go to Mars Hill – and are awesome, Jesus loving people. It hurts to have things like this posted and see people that I love basically called brainless cult followers because their beliefs differ from yours. So you don’t believe that the man should lead the home, like Christ leads the church. That’s fine! Don’t live your life that way – that doesn’t mean that those of us that do believe that are sexist men, or opressed women. We have slightly differing views. I don’t judge your differing views. This does not make me a fundamentalist. I would like to write more, but don’t have time right now. It just really gets to me. It makes me sad. I found this blog, not by googling Mark Driscoll, but from Angie Smith’s blog. I know you are friends with her, and go to church with her. She seams like an awesome woman of God – and you and your family seem to really love God too. anyway, know that my heart is in the right place. Maybe I should have emailed this.
I’ve seen several comments speaking of the people of Mars Hill as “loving” but so far I see no evidence of love of any kind emanating from this so-called ministry.
I am a pastor in L.A. and I think this contract would be entirely appropriate if all the Mars Hill leaders (including Mark) made a similar list of all their sins, signed it promising never to do any of them again, and then openly shared their contracts amongst each other. The inprobability of such an event reveals their hypocrisy and self-righteousness. To this I think Jesus would say, “Let him who is without sin sign the first contract…”
Read Part One, just finished Part Two. I do not mean to offend anyone, but WHAT a pile of crap this is. Really! WHERE O WHERE is the grace of God here for this man? It’s obvious to me that Andrew was convicted of his sin (not caught by someone and forced to open up), confessed it and was working to repent of it. How many tears does he have to cry, how sorrowful does his face have to look, how low does his head need to hang before the leadership at Mars Hill Church (good grief, should this place EVEN be called a church? More like a cult) will be satisfied? Meetings? Signed contracts? How many meetings did Jesus have with the adulterous woman? Did the sinful tax collector who was humbly standing behind the prideful Pharisee in the temple have to sign a contract before they let him in? The church is supposed to be a body of believers…the body of Christ, for Pete’s sake…..offering Christ’s love, grace, mercy, forgiveness and compassion. Not a Morgan Stanley marathon business meeting, offering judgment and contracts to be signed. Unbelievable and downright shameful.