‘I don’t want to see your boobs!’ (a blog post about modesty)
I found this video over at Christian Nightmares. At some point in this video, the Christian teacher says to the group of women… “I don’t want to see your boobs!”
Why? Because women should be modest. And boobs aren’t modest, right?
I’ll be honest: conversations about modesty make me uncomfortable for a number of reasons.
1) Because I’m a guy. And let’s face it: our Christian “modesty rules” are sexist, putting far more responsibility on females than males. Most of us have grown up in a culture where men–regardless of their body size and shape–walk around on beaches in swim shorts without ever worrying about what they might be causing the female population to think about. Yes, I know; that’s because men are more visually stimulated than women! We say that. But is that really true? Could it be that, on average, women have higher standards of what they find visually attractive on men (and are more discreet in how they express that?) OR could it be that, we’ve grown up in a culture where the male physique–in all of its various levels of glory–isn’t taboo when seen in public? Seeing a man mostly naked on TV has never been considered pornographic. Even when NYPD Blue showcased a few of their actors’ backsides, people hardly blinked an eye. Most of us thought it was funny. Certainly in recent decades the male body has become much more sexualized in our culture–movies, advertisements, magazines, sports, modeling, etc–here’s the difference: Nobody thinks anything about somebody like Tim Tebow pulling his shirt off in public.
2) People’s ideas about what is/isn’t modest vary greatly. In other words, one Southern Baptist church’s “Godly Girl” wearing shorts and a comfortable t-shirt can be a Pentecostal church’s harlot. And women often become labeled by the clothes they wear or the ones they don’t wear. It’s difficult to talk about modesty without getting way too interested in details and lines and saying THIS is immodest and THAT is modest. Modesty rules breed legalism, mean-spiritedness, and pride.
3) Our ideas about modesty are mostly Puritanically American, and no, there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but we must remember that our “modesty” is far more a cultural standard than it is a spiritual one. In a society with a history of making sure that women’s breasts were things not to be talked about but rather covered up (for the sake of the male’s eyes/integrity!!!)–is it any wonder our culture has grown into one that worships breasts as only sexual objects? For a while in our culture, many of us seemed to forget or ignore what breasts were really made for–bringing nourishment to babies. Thankfully that’s changing. But perhaps. Just maybe. If we Americans created a society where breastfeeding in public wasn’t taboo, we’d be reminded on a regular basis the true purpose of breasts and we wouldn’t be so quick to turn them into sexual objects… and maybe… just maybe… women would stop feeling the social pressure to have breast enhancement…
4) Some of my reasons are because of how I was raised. Once a month for 12 years school years, I watched my female classmates forced to line up in the hallway, one straight line of girls kneeling, all waiting for a teacher to walk by and measure the distance between the floor and the hem of their skirts and also the distance between the lowest point on their blouse and their clavicles. If the distances were too great, they were sent home or forced to wear the school’s official “ugly sweater,” my school’s version of the Letter A. I had three sisters. I watched all of them kneel in that line. And I have witnessed firsthand how my church’s modesty laws have affected various aspects of their lives, from insecurity to parenting to how they interact with other women with different modesty ideals than their own.
5) And I also think that our rules surrounding modesty have longstanding effects for some people. When I was doing research for the book I wrote about sex, I interviewed numerous married Christian women who confessed that sexual intimacy with their husbands was a struggle. They’d been told all their lives that it was a sin to be sexy. And turning that “rule” off when in the bedroom with their husbands was, for some, impossible. Many felt guilty for “feeling sexual”. And I think that’s sad.
6) The undertone of “modesty” is shame. Whether the words are ever said aloud or not, how we Christians talk about modesty makes many women feel insecure/shameful about their bodies. And I wonder, if in some small ways, America’s Church has aided in the success and lure of pornography. While we probably don’t want to admit this, THE CHURCH is guilty of the same sin as the Porn Industry: we objectify women. Sure, it’s different. But is it really different? The focus is the same–a woman’s body, her breasts. Of course it’s different. But it does have similarities. And this is just my theory, but by helping create and then maintain a culture that has made a woman’s body taboo, an object NOT to be looked at, we’ve helped create and maintain a culture’s interest and curiosity and lust for looking at it.
And sadly, both sides miss the mark on what is truly modest.
7) And lastly… if we’re going to offer our daughters lessons about modesty (and I think we should despite it being a difficult topic to discuss), the conversation shouldn’t come laced with the clause “because we want to serve our Christian brothers”! What is that teaching girls? On one hand, it reiterates “shame” but it also reinforces the idea that men are only interested in a woman’s body. And so, by focusing on modesty as a way to keep your Christian brother from lusting, we are not giving them the kind of knowledge that empowers them to be confident, secure, and to make good choices. That “reason” for modest doesn’t teach self-respect! It teaches respect for their Christian brothers, a lesson that once again, though it might be subtle, casts the female as “not-quite equal” to man. But perhaps worst of all, this kind of modesty teaching sets young girls up to begin objectifying themselves. It creates a platform in their lives where “being objectified”–whether its by our culture or the church–is seen as normal, even expected. And there’s nothing modest about that.
But again, I hate conversations about modesty. But let’s have one anyway…
Yes.
Steph
You hit a home run with this post. I was a girl in that line many times…it took me a good 9 years of my going-on-15 years of marriage to figure out not only is it ok to be sexual, but that I was actually created that way! While I certainly don’t do everything right, I hope that I will be able to help my 13 year old daughter understand this better than I did.
I had a thoroughly secular upbringing, so while I had heard of stringent dress codes of the sort described by the article and by you, I had always just assumed that enforcement was ad hoc and eyeballed. The fact that they actually had girls line up and kneel and took rulers to their clothes kinda shocks and appalls me, even after everything else I’ve learned about the evangelical subculture here and elsewhere.
Yes. Yes. Yes. To loosely quote someone I follow on twitter who finally decided to quit agonizing over her large chest, “They are just boobs. They aren’t going to pass out on your couch or throw up on your lawn.”
PS- any woman who says she is not visually stimulated by a good looking man on the beach in nothing but shorts is probably lying! We are just better at oogling without being noticed haha
Thank you so SO much for point number 6. The church’s negative fascination with women’s bodies always made me uncomfortable as a teenager. I don’t understand how young girls in tshirts declaring “Modest is Hottest” is any different than young girls in tshirts that say “Sex Kitten.”
As the husband of a very modest wife and a not-always-terribly-modest daughter, RIGHT ON.
You’re married to your daughter? Awkward. ;-)
*snort* yeah, I guess I didn’t really phrase that right…more coffee…
Ok, so I get where you see problems in the way we handle the modesty issue, particularly with women. But how do you propose we approach the subject? It’s mentioned in the Bible with regard to how one dresses, so some standard of modesty was in the mind of the writer (and ostensibly, God).
I tend to agree that the arbitrary yardsticks being used aren’t the best approach, but how should it be defined? If you ask a child to dress modestly at school, doesn’t there have to be some point at which you can say, “that’s not modest” and make them change into something that is? And you know teenagers…they will force you to answer they questions in the most pedantic way possible.
I guess I’m wondering, other than talking about it in a more holistic way, what do you do when you’re a parent, or a youth pastor, or a principal and you have to be the one to tell a teenager to wear something more appropriate and modest if you don’t have some rule of thumb to go by?
As you know, I went to a Christian school much (exactly?) like the one you went to. What you may not know is, I taught at one for three years when our oldest daughter was very young. Even though it was connected to a Presbyterian church, the rules of the school were just like the Fundie one I went to as a kid, supposedly in the name of “not offending other Christians.” So the same dress code issues were there: the skirt measuring, etc. It made me sad for those girls. I remember one girl who routinely “failed” the skirt or shorts measurement test, because she had really, really long legs. Her mom tried to get her the longest shorts and skorts she could, but the girl was tall, and she was growing too! Those rules only made girls like her feel bad about themselves and the way God made them. Not an appropriate message for a Christian school to be teaching.
Oh, and as a teacher I was not allowed to mention Santa Claus or have any Santa Claus decorations in the classroom at Christmastime, because that might offend someone. And I couldn’t bring a King Cake for the faculty break room at Mardi Gras because that was “pagan.”
This is timely since I just went to the water park with my tween sons. I didn’t see a girl over 14 and under 25 NOT in a bikini. I tried to sort out how I felt about it and I think I came to the conclusion that these girls are objectifying themselves. It kills me when I hear girls and women talk about how they “have” to dress in order to be noticed. I have to admit, I was like that until recently. I think it comes down to wanting to be valued as a whole person. I don’t want to be valued only for my physical appearance – but honestly I don’t want to be valued only for my mind and sparkling personality either. I think as women we need to seek to be a whole person. We need to value our intellect (not undersell it), value our perspectives, value our bodies. So now, I try to present myself as a whole person. Cute jeans, good vocabulary, killer wit, and love for Jesus – all in one package.
Why does a bikini have to be about a girl’s body though? Maybe she liked the print and couldn’t find in a one-piece suit/tankini/whatever? Maybe she’s oddly proportioned and buys bikini tops because they’re the most easily adjustable. One-piece/tankini tops are hard for me. If they fit my chest, they’re flappy around my stomach, and so I get bikini tops because I can buy them to fit my breasts, and then tie as tight as I need to to fit my neck and ribcage. It’s about practicality, not showing off.
Becca: There are seamstress out there who will modify any bathing suit to fit your body for very inexpensive amounts. Dont let inconvience stop you.
Oh, I have the same problem with clothing (32G/34H makes it hard to buy nice shirts and dresses), and I have clothing altered fairly often. It just seems ridiculous to spend $15 have a swimsuit altered when I’ve found a solution that works well for me, and probably paid less than $15 for the piece to start out with.
Becca, that’s me too. I’m 5’0″, 36DD, and my shoulders are nearly non-existent. Bathing suits are a nightmare, especially on my budget, and DJ, some of us can’t even afford the inexpensive tailors. Now that I have something of a tummy, though, I end up wearing a tank-toppish tankini and just put up with the strap slippage. I can’t win with the one-pieces though. I’m too out of standard proportion for even a tailor to make work.
I wear a bikini. It took a long time for me to be able to wear one and not feel guilty and ashamed. And I can tell you I am NOT objectifying myself when I wear it. I don’t know about “these girls” that you saw. Maybe some were, maybe some weren’t. But you don’t know what’s going on in their minds and so how do you know?
Why do I wear a bikini? Because it’s MY BODY and I am sick of feeling ashamed of it and wanting to cover it up and hide it. Because it’s MY BODY and that bikini looked cute on me. Because it’s MY BODY and I could care less that conservative Christians that I grew up with are going to think that I’m objectifying it.
Amen. OK, I don’t wear a bikini and have never particularly wanted to. But in college I bought a one piece suit with French cut legs. Why? Because it was this gorgeous turquoise and black floral that I loved at first sight. And then I took it home and my mother accused me of buying it to get men to look at me. She could not comprehend buying a swimsuit simply because it made me happy to look at and because I felt good in it. Yes, I wanted to look good. Does anyone try clothes on with the express idea of wanting to look bad? Of course not! But wanting to look good and wanting to entice are two different things entirely.
I’m totally with you, Luna. I grew fundie, my best friend helped me come out of that, and I bought my first bikini at age 23. Why? Because I have a nice body. Because it’s comfortable. Because at the beach, nobody really cares. Because I don’t care anymore. If someone has a problem with it (whether they verbalize or not), they need to relax, have a drink, and get a life.
This whole post is great, but #7 is especially on-point for me. I went to a conservative Christian college and each semester there would be a “girl’s chapel” where RAs and RDs tried to humorously explain what the dress code is and the reason behind it. Of course when it came time to be serious, they would always tell the girls how the guys basically just can’t help but be lustful creeps and it’s our duty to make sure that we cover ourselves so that they will have less cause to lust over us. Never once were we told to dress in a way that showed respect for ourselves, just for the guys on campus. They urged us to look in the mirror each morning and ask ourselves if what we’re wearing shows respect for our brothers in Christ.
While the dress code was mostly reasonable, girls were not allowed to carry purses or bags with the strap going across their chests because it “separated and defined the breasts.” It’s as if breasts are these shameful things that women needed to hide and play down as much as possible.
“they would always tell the girls how the guys basically just can’t help but be lustful creeps and it’s our duty to make sure that we cover ourselves so that they will have less cause to lust over us.”
Hmm….interesting, as that is the EXACT same reason given in Islamist states to make women wear veils and burkas. And yet so many Christians call them barbaric for their treatment of women. Seems like some of them might be jealous instead.
I have a couple thoughts when Tim Tebow pulls his shirt off in public. ;)
Wow, wow, wow! As a person who’s boobs have served her well lactationally (is that a word?) and sexually, I say “Amen” brother Matthew.
If our culture will put our “girls” back where they belong philosophically, then putting them where they belong physically will be a non-issue.
Great thoughts.
Thanks for your courage in taking on a tough topic. Believe me ladies, if men were TeleTubbies and our thoughts were projected on the screen, you would wrap up in a blanket! Men, join me in this covenant. I will not even be in a elevator alone with a woman who is not my wife. If a woman gets on the elevator alone – I’m off. If the door opens and a woman is alone – I take the stairs. Full Armor!
Thank you, Mark! The last thing I need is being alone on an elevator with some creepy guy who can’t control his objectification of my body. Sounds like you are definitely saving YOUR skin from Taser marks by staying the heck away from mine!
I remember seeing the pictures of the girls’ basketball team from the Christian school my brother attended (we went to different ones, but equally legalistic). They had to wear sweatpants and sweatshirts at all practices and games! Why not just make them wear burqas all the time?
As the mother of a beautiful little girl, I LOVE your point about how the church’s talk about “not making brothers stumble” makes unequal sex objects of women. I never thought about that before, but you are SO right! I always knew that bothered me…you just explained why.
As a woman who grew up as a good, modest Baptist who never showed any cleavage, but who’s now been breastfeeding for 3.5 years (and expecting at least another 3 years of it, since I’m pregnant) and has long since given up on any pretence at “modesty” while breastfeeding (I rarely breastfeed in public now, but when I do…yeah. I’m one of those “horrible” moms who just whips it out and shows everything. It’s not worth the effort to try to hide something I’m no longer ashamed of!), I LOVE that you talk about how this false “modesty” around breasts is detrimental to the way we nourish our babies. There was a great study of a chimpanzee mother who could not breastfeed her baby until she watched another mom do it (they brought a human breastfeeding mom to show her how!). Breastfeeding is natural, but it’s NOT instinctive. It’s a skill that’s learned by observation, and women who have never watched it done (and I mean being able to see the actual mechanics of it, not seeing somebody holding a baby under a blanket!) have no way of knowing how to do it. I was reduced to watching YouTube videos to learn how to breastfeed when my daughter was born, but I want her to grow up in a world where she sees it done and naturally learns how to do it by watching. Which is the real reason why I decidedto reject my Baptist upbringing and accept that bared breasts with a baby attached to them are not immodest.
Whew. End rant. Finally, as your friend, I just love you for this whole post. :)
No blankets for me back in my nursing days either. Though I could breastfeed a baby without most people knowing what I was doing after some experience. Did take some figuring out first. Quick hand under to unhook, use baby to push up shirt and cover belly at same time. When baby’s old enough, he/she doesn’t need a lot of guidance. There was no YouTube on my day. I did make computer friends on a baby board that were a big help.
My mom nursed all 5 of her babies, so I did have a role model early on. She died when I was a teenager, so I didn’t have the person I wanted most in the world available to help me. Not that she could’ve helped me with the trickier part: pumping in bathrooms, call rooms, anywhere I could find as a medical resident. Nothing like having someone walk in on you while you’re hooked up to a machine like a dairy cow. That’ll throw all modesty out the window.
I like your rant and just crafted a real nice comment that got eaten by the spam filter. Probably used the word breast too much.
Thanks for pulling me out of the filter :)
It’s surprising to feel so understood by a male. But your post is right on. As a very modest 22yr old I have experienced those feelings of shame, guilt and objectification that you mention. It almost seems unfair to feel the way I do when men seem to get by just by saying “I’m a guy”…
I spent four years at a Baptist college. I don’t know what the ladies went through, but the guys were subjected to meeting after awkward meeting about NOT THINKING ABOUT SEX! We were NOT to look at porn. What’s porn? Oh, here, let me explain it. Now DON’T LOOK AT IT. Also, do NOT look at any of the girls on campus as sexual objects. See that girl over there? Perfect example. Look at her long legs. No, wait! DON’T look at those! Also, her butt and breasts. Don’t look!
See you next week, guys. If you masturbate, confess it in morbid detail to your roommate. Praise Jesus.
Naturally, half the campus was engaged by junior year.
Dave, your post is the best! LOL!
You win at the internet for today.
Insightful and thought- provoking. I appreciate your candor. Gonna share this w/ everyone.
I completely agree with this blog. Instead of telling girls, and women they need to dress modestly to keep men from stumbling, we should be helping them seek the empowerment they will feel by valuing their bodies, and sexuality in a healthy way. Women are completely sexual beings too. If they weren’t the erotica fiction market wouldn’t be as popular as it is! On a side-note, I’m not condoning seeking out erotica fiction, but it remains a huge market in books, and is targeted toward women.
Such a great post. I think we’ve totally missed the mark in the way we teach girls about their body. Modesty and sexuality are two sides of the same coin, not opposing interests, one of which needs to be nurtured at the expense of the other.
Teaching girls and young women to treasure their own bodies and sexuality will help them understand that these things are worth “protecting” (though I hate that word). And so if I, as a woman, am worth something, then my body is worth something, my sexuality is worth something. And that worth means that I have reason to “protect”, nurture, and treasure those things, and to not put them on display for just anyone.
Even though I’m no longer a Christian, I still dress according to the “skin rule”.
I never have exposed legs (above the knee) when my shoulders are bare and I never have bare shoulders when my legs (above the knee) are exposed. I even wear a cover up over my bathing suit. It works for me and I’m comfortable with that. I may wear short skirts or a strapless top, just not together.
But again, the point is that I’m dressing to *MY* level of comfort. If other people think my skirt is too short… too bad!
It is true that modesty rules are completely arbitrary. One of Joan of Arc’s “crimes” for which she was burned at the stake was dressing as a man, aka wearing pants.
Jesus wore a dress. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Jesus depicted (seriously that is) in pants.
People in Europe sunbathe topless and nearly nude in front of their children. No one seems to think twice about it.
I think that modesty rules are just one more level of control of women. It’s another reason to not attend church anymore.
In Texas’ sweltering heat?! Yikes, that’s commitment to the skin rule.
Light materials work well. Our clothing stores seem to carry stuff that works for us!
Anyway, I would comfortably wear a spaghetti strap tank top and cropped pants. I just wouldn’t be comfortable in that top with short shorts. I’d wear a cute tee shirt with short shorts.
That’s just me, tho. I am not at all concerned how other people dress.
Good post. I couldn’t help but wonder why you question cultural norms without providing much data in support of your questions like are men more visually stimulated than women. Always good to ask those questions but good to have a little research that provides some answers. In my half century on earth I’ve been taught by trained by “experts” that men and women are different physiologically in many ways. But the point being – and another unsupported assertion you make that the church may have much to do about the current wave of porn in our nation – is that this man is visually stimulated at the sight of women … clothed or otherwise. And for those of us who’ve struggled with porn I find it irresponsible to imply blame on the church and not even consider that maybe we’ve (western culture) removed modesty from our cultural vocabulary. It would be nice if both men and women were modest and took into consideration others when they dress – not to allure and attract but to cover up in good taste. A little fodder for the dialog!
Does seeing a woman’s wrist or ankle turn you on? This is a serious question.
150 years ago, seeing a woman’s ankle was considered immodest. In Japan, Geisha’s will seduce men by exposing their wrists during the tea service.
Are wrists and ankles sexual parts of the body? Not usually for us now.
Maybe, just maybe, if you saw enough boobs and bodies of women and the stigma of shame was removed, it would become no big deal.
I think porn addiction is fueled by shame. It is exciting to get away with doing something so bad! It’s a lot less exciting when it’s no big deal and not stigmatized.
I’ve seen some porn… and to me it is BOOOOORIIIINNNGGGG!!!!! It’s just the same stupid stuff over and over. Boring.
Then again, I’m not ashamed to see a naked body anymore. You’ve see one, you’ve seen ‘em all. I guess I’m kinda clinical about it.
Just some thoughts.
Oh, hey, and here’s a last thought… do you think a Christian man can be a good OB/GYN? Because plenty of them seem to be…
See the way she walks down the street
See the way she shuffles her feet
My, she holds her head up high
When she goes walking by
When she holds my hand I’m so proud
‘Cuz she’s not just one of the crowd
She’s always the one
To try the things they’ve never done
And just because of that they say…
She’s a rebel and she’ll never, ever be any good
She’s a rebel cause she never, ever does what she should
But just because she doesn’t do what everybody else does
That’s no reason why I can’t give her all my love
And girls just wanna have fun.
When you switch the gender the lyrics have so much more meaning. And when Ms Lauper tosses those lines into her famous song, not only does it fit musically to the melody of “Girls…” but it aptly fits the theme of her tune. Too bad we don’t send women & little girls this message instead of the “cover up your boobs” nonsense.
Right On! Thank you, MPT!!
I almost hate to bring this up in such a serious context, but it cracks me up that midway through this article when I was reading it was a Macy’s ad for bras with the top half of a woman wearing nothing but what they were advertising.
YES YES YES YES. FIST PUMP.
This post needs to be printed out and handed to every youth or college campus pastor across the nation. Especially this line: “Modesty rules breed legalism, mean-spiritedness, and pride.”
The following may be TMI, but it’s relevant:
I, for years, would wear nothing but jeans and crew neck tshirts, even though I disliked having cloth that close to my neck and they made me look like a slob (they were relatively comfortable, but did not look good on me). I did so because I had this screwed up view of myself where, if I didn’t look good to myself, then I didn’t look good to anyone else and therefore avoided “tempting” my brothers in Christ.
And then I tried on a v-neck tshirt and I realized something: I have boobs! And I like how they look!
It changed my entire perspective of myself – wearing what would have been immodest for me just a few years ago makes me feel good about my self-image. When I look in the mirror, I see a pretty girl who is much more confident. And I’m not confident because “ooh, that boy is looking at me approvingly.” I’m confident because I feel comfortable about how I look. Period. I no longer am worried about how boys are look at my clothes one way or the other. I am not externalizing my confidence in my looks but rather dressing myself and approving of myself before I even encounter anyone else in the day.
There’s also a lot to be said for not sexualizing the naked body except in contexts where it is meant to be sexualized. Me wearing a v-neck tshirt on the bus is not an appropriate situation in which to sexualize my cleavage. Being comfortable with the exposure of skin and not policing other people’s choices when it comes to what they do and don’t wear is a freeing thing – it becomes a lot easier not to sexualize people because you recognize that they are, in fact, people. And that, ultimately, is what causes lust – turning people from people into objects, and no amount of modesty rules will keep us from doing that.
I am not responsible for my brother’s thought life and you are not responsible for my dress. We good? Good.
Re: porn being boring. Craig Ferguson’s take on porn the other night: “It’s like snooker [pool]. I enjoy it, but I don’t enjoy watching it on TV.”
LOL! So true!!!
I think we all need to remember that our standard is the Bible. We are to of the world not in it, a royal priesthood, a chosen generation? Just because Tim Tebow takes his shirt off and everyone yawns or a TV show has the backside of a male and we hardly blink an eye, doesnt mean that we lower our standards and yawn and not blink when we see the same thing. Im a 50+ woman and I dont want to see your boobs either! LOL. I winch when my 15 year old son has to go into a Pentecostal church for service and see a girl with her butt showing because her shorts are so short and her cleavage is right there for all to see. But, we are told not to offend any “seeker”, not to place any rules out there and scare them away from church, yet my son who has been raised in a Christian environment has to be the one to battle against any temptation he may feel? I dont quite understand the rightness in that. I think both men and women (now boys and girls with the teen culture of today) need to have respect for one another, Christian or not. We need to teach our kids to honor what the word says, not what culture says.
WHy not show your sons the book of SOlomon where he talks about his beloved, where he treasures her body. Then teach him this is the joy and pleasure of having a wife and how each of you can enjoy each other — tie it into marriage. Show your daughters the same passage. Let them see how wonderful her body is and how her husband will find happiness and pleasure in her and in the marriage bed. Tie all this into covering our bodies so that when we marry our spouse can have pleasure in your body that no one else has seen! Make it a positive thing that only your spouse has seen this wonderful body of yours. We focus too much on the worlds culture by watching their TV programs and movies, but getting wrapped up in reality TV that we forget we are suppose to be different than them, and this doesnt mean that that difference has to become a burden around our neck. Why are we watching this crap and emulating them? Didnt Jesus tell us that His burden was light?
“…yet my son who has been raised in a Christian environment has to be the one to battle against any temptation he may feel?”
YUP. Because HIS temptation is HIS responsibility.
Dianna: At 15? With all the hormones raging? Why not show some respect for others? Are we so devoid of common courtesy to others?
Dianna; Not saying your should go back to your turtlenecks and pants. No condemnation meant toward you in any way. If you are not a mother of teens then you probably dont understand how that makes a parent feel when they see their kids struggling. Especially struggling inside the church walls, where they used to be protected at least in some degree. Just wondering if its really necessary for these young girls to come to church with their butts hanging out. The men are at least respectful enough to put on a shirt when they come. I just think there is a lack of respect on all sides now days.
Things will ultimately be way, way better for him (and his future partner) in the future if he learns some things about women and modesty right now:
1. He is responsible for his thought life.
2. Skin is not automatically sexual.
3. Women are not dressing for his benefit – more often than not, they are dressing in the way that is comfortable for them.
4. Women are people too – blaming them for making him “look lustfully” merely turns them back into objects and prevents them from becoming people, which, was, oddly enough, MPT’s point in this post.
He is always going to be encountering immodestly dressed women, and he will have a very, very hard time if he doesn’t come up with a game plan to deal with it that DOES NOT include telling women to cover up more. To say such a thing toward women indicates that the man has ownership over her body, which is problematic in so many ways. At 15, frankly, is the best time to learn how to deal with his lust problems in a way that respects women rather than punishes them for wanting to look good.
Frankly, I find men in skinny jeans and a nice fitted tshirt to be quite often, good looking and even “hot.” Guess where I see this look a lot? Yup, in church. Am I going to start telling my guy friends “Don’t wear that shirt around me because it makes me think bad thoughts?” No, I’m going to take control of my own thought life and remind myself that the people I see in magazines, the people I see in church on a Sunday morning, the people I meet walking down the street or in the store are people too, that they have mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters and a life story that I am required to, by nature of being human, respect.
The sooner your son learns this lesson – that women are people, too, and don’t deserve to have their clothing policed because of HIS problem – the better. While I may not be a parent myself, modesty, women’s issues, and the church is my field. Maybe having a talk with your son about how he needs to stop sexualizing exposed skin and stop objectifying his sisters in Christ will go a lot further than “those sluts need to cover up.”
Are you sure your son is tempted solely and entirely by girls? He could be struggling with temptation by boys in tight jeans too, and profoundly unlikely to tell you. I’m just sayin’.
Here’s my question…how do you know he is struggling? How does HE know he is struggling? What is he struggling against? One of the wisest comments I ever read on the subject of modesty said in effect ‘teach men that there is a difference between lust and the normal physiological response that occurs when they see an attractive woman’. The church has SO CONDITIONED men/boys that appreciation for and attraction to the female body = BAD that of COURSE they are going to struggle.
What if instead we taught our sons that it is perfectly normal to look at a woman, be attracted and then go on with their lives as normal instead of dwelling on it? What if we taught them to treat all women with respect with no regard to what they are wearing? I think they would be far better served than with the current emphasis on ‘pure thoughts at all times’.
Anyone who thinks women, even Christian women, don’t struggle with lusting over shirtless men (or sometimes even men wearing shirts) hasn’t seen Alexander Skarsgard in True Blood.
Boobs rock – moobs not so much. Ban the moobs.
We are not be a stumbling block either. Remember that part? Male or female, doesnt matter. Im not saying cover everything up and look and be uncomfortable. Its possible to be comfortable and modest and fashionable at the same time.
I’m sorry, but the whole “stumbling block” mentality is total bunk designed to control people.
If I have a glass of wine at dinner and you see that and decide to drink yourself into a hole, that is not *my* fault, that’s *yours*.
Likewise, if I wear an outfit that makes me feel good and I like it, and some dude is tempted to think about me in *that* way, it’s not my fault, it is *his*. I’m not going to wear a burka to protect my modesty. Likewise, I’m going to wear what I’m comfortable wearing *regardless* of what people think because people have differing *arbitrary* comfort levels with modesty.
Some 15 year old feeling temptation might feel that regardless of how I’m dressed. He’s going through puberty and his body is preparing him to be a sexual being. That’s normal. I’m not going to change what I’m doing for that.
Unfortunately, this concept of “my freedom, your responsibility” is completely at odds with the Word. This kind of attitude is exactly what Paul was dealing with in 1 Corinthians 8. Saying that “you should know better than to be tempted” is a cheap cop-out to a question of mutual respect. Of course we should not lust after one-another, but we should also not do things that we know cause others to lust.
LRA said she’s not a Christian anymore. And this applies to other non-Christians. Why should they be forced to operate by (supposedly or not) Christian guidelines if they’re not of the faith?
It’s rather silly to expect the entire world to revolve around one’s beliefs.
There is a question of respect, but when it comes to modesty, it IS almost entirely one sided.
Interestingly, I’ve read of women who have lived in Afghanistan and other Muslim cultures where burka’s were the norm, and the men in those cultures were hands on with pinching and touching. The temptation will always be there for men.
What I think is the most important point of the article, is that rather than coercing women into dressing modestly because “Men are potential rapists”, we need to positively encourage women to dress in a way that is respectful of themselves and those around them.
I think guys should respect me by realizing that I’m not their sex object. I dress in ways that I’m comfortable with. *Just like they do.* If they don’t like it, too bad. I don’t go around telling men how to dress, and likewise, they have no place to tell me how to dress.
I felt that way even when I was still a Christian. I’m not responsible for your lust. I could be covered from neck to ankles, and some guy out there might still find my face attractive… should I cover my face too? Where is the line?
This is EXACTLY the problem with the violation of women’s rights in the Middle East. The theocrats have taken it so far there that women are forced to go about in society *faceless* literally. Faceless. Is that what you want for the women in your church? You want to make them faceless?
Again, the lines are arbitrary. Why don’t you men realize that feeling attraction for a nice-looking woman is natural and just recognize it for what it is… a temporary feeling that will pass. We women manage to deal with it everyday just fine. I can see a hot dude and feel an attraction for him and recognize it for what it is… appreciation of someone I find beautiful. Yes, lust may be involved, but what matters is whether or not I act on it (and sometimes I do! LOL!)
I don’t expect all men to stop wearing jeans just because some guys’ butts look really, really hot in jeans. That’s pretty silly.
Re: #6…
It’s like that old trick your professor played in Psych 101 — “Ok, everybody… DON’T think about elephants.”
Of COURSE you’re going to think about elephants.
Great post, MPT.
P.S. Burqas are hot.
As a Texan, I can tell you that when I see girls covered head to toe with a headscarf on here and it’s 105 degrees outside, I start sweating.
I’m in Austin. It’s too hot to be modest here. Haha.
When we lived in Franklin, TN, my wife and I (in our modest swimming attire) used to take the kids to the pool at the Maryland Farms YMCA in Brentwood. The Muslim women wore swimming burqas (no joke) and the men wore (practically) Speedos.
I’m in Dallas and the heat right now is unbelievable!!!
I’m so glad someone invented AC!!! YAYYYY AC!!!
You know what, tho… I miss the Greenbelt. I lived in Austin for 3 years. A little Taco Deli + Greenbelt = Happy Saturday afternoon!
You really have hit the nail on the head with this one. It is such a tough topic to discuss, and I have to admit that I don’t have any solutions at the moment for how to approach it the right way. I just know that a more well-rounded, in depth approach to teaching about modesty does need to be taken.
I felt like I had the issue pretty much under control up until I went to college, which was a very conservative Southern Baptist school. And all of a sudden, I was away from home and I was being bombarded with messages of modesty and doing whatever I could to keep my brothers in Christ to lust after me. Not only that, but there were also very strict rules about when I could be around guys. I remember I once got in trouble because I was sitting in a parked car in the school parking lot with one of my male friends for longer than five minutes talking. When people start to punish you for doing things that aren’t wrong, even if you have very strong values, you start to question those values anyway.
My freshman year I met a guy who was a youth minister and started dating him. He struggled a great deal with porn and taking relationships too far physically, so once we started to get more serious, he started to put the brunt of that on me. I would meet him for dates in outfits that completely met our Southern Baptist college dress code standards and I would end up getting lectures on how because of the way I was dressed that night I was causing him to lust, and then in turn it was my fault that he went home and looked at porn that night. He was also extremely critical of the clothes I wore when we went to any of his youth group meetings. And then, a year later, when I found out he was cheating on me, one of the excuses he made for dating this other girl was that she dressed more modestly than I did. Part of this was him deflecting these issues he had onto me, but a great deal of it was him repeating what he had come to believe from years and years of purity and modesty sermons and books and conferences, etc. It was an issue that was important to him because he struggled with it so much, so he had developed a pretty strong view on it based on certain pastors’ and authors’ teachings.
Let’s forget the fact that there are issues with someone like this having a leadership role in a church, over teenagers nonetheless. He did get fired, btw.
My point is that these messages that are so often sent by the church can really harm young girls and women. People wonder why so many women grow up with body image issues or are insecure. They wonder why women end up going crazy and showing off their body for attention or why they hide under layers and layers of clothes. It’s because they’ve been told they are responsible for so many sins of men. And it’s because they’ve been treated like objects. And instead of being lifted up as what they are, beautifully created in the image of God, they’re told to cover up and be ashamed and not to screw up so bad next time.
Because of what I went through, I have struggled with horrible body image issues. I have spent years covering up my body with layers of baggy clothes. I haven’t recently been comfortable dressing in a way that shows off my femininity until about two years ago. I struggle with an eating disorder daily. And even though I’m married to a man who loves me very much and I know thinks I am beautiful, there are a lot of things in our marriage relationship that I have to work on because of my past.
I’m not saying that the entire church sends off these messages to females. And I’m not saying that we don’t need to know that when guys see us in revealing clothes it can cause them to be tempted. I’m just saying that more girls are put in situations like mine than people probably realize, and like mpt said, we do need to start putting more time and effort and thought into how we approach this issue. Because I don’t think people really understand the lasting effects it can have on women.
Matt I’m loving this post so much. Growing up in a Pentecostal movement that dictated women as sexual predators preying on men who lack any self control with ridiculous suggestions such as bra straps showing on a sunny day when wearing a best top has contributed to so many detrimental insecurities within myself. Can’t just blame this for my insecurities but I know it to be a part of the root.
Also I lol’d hard at Dave Berrys post-I just graduated from a theology college and know that illustration of the sexual/relationship culture far too well! Hahaha
I pretty much agree with everything except this point:
“For a while in our culture, many of us seemed to forget or ignore what breasts were really made for–bringing nourishment to babies.”
If human breasts were only for feeding young, they would be like those of other primates: inobvious except when lactating. While feeding is one of their purposes, they are also a secondary sexual characteristic. Though not directly involved in reproduction, they are in the same category as men’s broadened shoulders and facial hair: they are involved in sexual selection.
Hmm. Not sure that’s a great point, man. Many mammals’ mammary glands are visible outside of feeding young. And too, most women grow 2 or 3 cup-sizes while breast feeding. A friend of Jess and mine told us that she loves breast feeding because she feels like she actually has boobs now.
I’m not saying that breasts weren’t designed for beauty. But they do serve a purpose that I think is much greater than that.
The same is true for most of the areas of the body that people find attractive.
Some people think feet are hot. Like… they get crazy turned-on by feet… but we know they serve a far more important purpose…
I specified primates. And other primates’ breasts swell when lactating, so that humans’ do too is not surprising. My point is that breasts being considered sexy is purely a social or individual construct but has some biological basis.
I did put them in the same category as men’s shoulders and beards. Very few people scream about modesty when a man dresses in a way that emphasizes his “sexy” shape. Hell, that’s what most business suits try to do.
And could you edit your post to remove my given name. That’s pretty classless when I am intentionally posting under a pseudonym?
I’m very sorry about the name thing. I didn’t do that on purpose. Because I comment within my blog’s interface, I see the name, email address, so I just used yours out of habit. Again, I’m sorry.
And regarding your point, I think I misunderstood your first comment. My apologies there too.
God created our bodies to be attractive PURPOSEFULLY. There is no shame in finding attractive that which HE created for us to find attractive.
And He also created us to multitask. Breasts are both the lure and the fish. Were it not for secondary sexual characteristics, we might never have the opportunity to bear offspring who need to be nourished via that same anatomy.
Also…I know I already commented, but I would like to mention that no matter what women cover up, men are still going to be tempted to lust. I had a sunday school teacher who went to the middle east during desert storm and found himself lusting after women in burqas. I loved the point about taboo making breasts “sexier.” People want what they can’t have.
So, as much as I’d love to help men not lust, I just don’t think that I can really do that. Humans- men and women- are sexual beings. And as a result, we’re going to be drawn to the act of sex no matter how modest the opposite gender dresses. The responsibility of controlling those sexual urges must rest primarily in the individual.
On a slightly related note, one thing that’s always amused me is the fact that the Bible clearly states that women should keep their hair covered in church, but you almost never see this done in practice amongst contemporary Christians other than by very conservative Catholics and extremely fundamentalist Protestants. It’s always amused me how some Christians, especially the Biblical literalist folks, could insist that everyone simply MUST dress, look, and act a specific sort of way because the Bible, or at least their interpretation of the Bible, says so, but, when it comes to covering their hair in church, their attitude is usually, “Meh… We don’t need to do that anymore.” It’s especially fun to point this out to people who make a big deal about the Qu’ran suggesting women should keep their hair covered. When you show them that the New Testament says pretty much the same exact thing, they usually just stand there sputtering and flailing their arms in desperation for a few moments before either just walking away or trying to change the subject.
I suppose I should mention that I’m referring of course to 1 Corinthians 11 which happens to contain a whole bunch of uncomfortable stuff. I suppose it’s no surprise that many contemporary Christians would choose to just kind of gloss over that bit of the Bible.
@Gkx: Bwahahaha!
I starkly recall growing up with sisters older and younger who were constantly reprimanded by my parents over issues of “modesty”. Whether or not the length or the fit was the issue, the message was the same: “don’t wear anything that draws attention to the fact that you’re a female.”. However, my brother and I, both athletes, constantly wore clothes that drew attention to our bodies. A definite double-standard, and most certainly a harmful one. Isn’t this just one element, though, of the rampant sexism in “the church”?
I starkly recall growing up with sisters older and younger who were constantly reprimanded by my parents over issues of “modesty”. Whether or not the length or the fit was the issue, the message was the same: “don’t wear anything that draws attention to the fact that you’re a female.”. However, my brother and I, both athletes, constantly wore clothes that drew attention to our bodies. A definite double-standard, and most certainly a harmful one. Isn’t this just one element, though, of the rampant sexism in “the church”?
Really good post, Matthew. Just one question, coming from a Nordic European: Is breastfeeding in public really taboo in America?! When my wife was breastfeeding our daughter a couple of years ago, we were told that the law here (in the UK) guarantees that you can do it where ever you like and if anyone tries to stop you, they can be fined. It’s so non-taboo, I saw a Muslim woman in a veil do it the other day. So I’m surprised to hear that it’s taboo over there. Sucks for you guys!
Yes, it is taboo– and in some places, a woman exposing her breasts in public is against the law… for any reason. Of course, the excuse is that ladies rooms sometimes have lounges, but who wants to sit in the bathroom to do that?
Many women will use a breast pump and store the milk in a bottle and take those out when in public. Some women will put a light blanket over their chest while feeding.
I live in Texas, which has a conservative culture. I can honestly say that I don’t think I’ve *ever* seen a woman breast feed in public.
My attitude, however, is more like yours… why should this be the case? It seems unfair and a bit silly.
We need to get some lactivists to Texas then. I’m in Ohio and I’ve breastfed everywhere including airports, airplanes, malls, parks and even during church service in the pews (covered in that case though).
Hey bro I was blown away that you were addressing this issue today since someone else in our network had just addressed this topic online and it has created a pretty lengthy conversation could there be some freedom coming to the church in this area?
http://www.spiritualwellness.com/blog/god-boobs-a-spiritual-womans-secret-agony-2/
I agree. At least in Texas, it is very taboo. I had the courage to use a very tasteful hooter hider (tasteless name though) in public only one time because I got so many sneers and jeers. It was ridiculous. Why should my baby have to eat in the same room in which we defecate? Disgusting. Consequently I was pretty much limited to 2 hour outings while breastfeeding. I’m sure I gave it up before I would have if I had not been subjected to judgement and had more freedom to do it somewhere besides home.
AMAZING post! You managed to say when I’ve felt, but could not express. Thank you!
This whole discussion is awesome. I became a christian when I was 20- I didn’t have the pleasure of being raised by ultra-conservative parents. ;) But upon becoming a Christian I was alarmed at the message being sent to women all of the time about how they looked- I had friends buying clothes 3 or 4 sizes too large in an effort to be modest, to conform to being the ideal “church-lady” (you know what I mean).
So, being me, I kept on being me. I didn’t see where the Bible talked about wearing a bikini to the beach. Or what that had to do with Jesus. And what does critiquing someone else’s clothing have to do with Jesus? Or loving people?
It wasn’t a commitment to the skin rule at all. I wish I’d had the nerve to do what I needed to do. But it’s really hard to have a letdown when you’re not relaxed. No way could could I relax with all the evil stares. It was pretty awful.
I didn’t think it was! I think you should be able to feed your child in any way you find appropriate.
The skin rule is my personal rule to keep *me* comfortable. I don’t ever apply it to anyone else. In fact, I generally don’t notice what other people are wearing… unless it’s supercute and I wonder where they bought it… or unless it’s on a hot guy and I’m like…
O.O***(Oh WOW!! That’s HAWT!)
:D
Man, I remember the modestly line. I was always ending up in the school’s “ugly skirt” because my body isn’t that proportionate and my skirts never fit right. gross.
But I agree with all these points. Awesome. awesome awesome. I cheered on the last point, too…out loud to my empty kitchen.
That lady has nothing I want to see.
I stopped going to church when a preacher preached that teenage boys would no longer be allowed to attend youth group wearing caps.
And it’s just another way to let boys and men off the hook and make them feel entitled to women’s bodies.
The idea that a woman must be modest so that men don’t lust says that if a woman *isn’t* modest, well then, he just couldn’t help lusting. And if he couldn’t help lusting, it’s just one more step to say he couldn’t help it if he sexually assaults her because “well, look at what she was wearing.”
And see, you can’t be too “frumpy” either for the same reason of “men are visual.” Because as a woman, you have to dress just nicely enough to keep your man, but not too sexual to make the others lust. And of course, everyone *else’s* standards are the standards you should have followed and should have known about. Because who actually decided this whole modesty thing? It’s so arbitrary, based on every last guy in the entire world that women are apparently supposed to take into account and judge their outfits by.
And on top of that, I’m more “modest” than other women, by virtue of the fact that I’m barely an A-cup. If I wear a big enough shirt, my chest is practically not visible. If I wear a tight-fitting outfit, our culture has decided I’ll be less likely to cause men to stumble. And that has everything to do with sexuality and controlling women’s bodies.
I think so much of these issues–porn/sex addiction, lustful thoughts, & immodesty–have so much more to do with self-control than any other issue. The reality is, western culture is a culture of overindulgence in every area. I love the way CS Lewis talked about it in “Mere Christianity.” If we were exposed to a culture where people paid money and gathered around a plate of food, the cover was removed & the entire room set off into salivating, ogling, & hollering we’d think it was weird…but that’s exactly what western culture does with sex (to some extent we’ve done it with food :) ). And on top of all of that, media teaches young people (and adults) that it’s just part of nature & we should accept it and cultivate. But, the reality is anything that is natural, when taken too far, becomes unnatural. And also, the Bible has alot to say about giving into our human nature.
I do not believe in ANY type of legalism…I see it in family members & I believe it is nothing but sexist control of women. But I do believe in The Church returning to the teachings of “abstinence from sin, self control in all other matters.” It is this same lack of teaching self-control that we have people in the church with video game addictions…we teach them to stay away from alcohol because it’s “sin,” yet they ruin their lives with computer & video games.
I enjoy being sexual & giving into my lusts…with my husband…and he with me. We are open in discussing it & being creative & experimental. Surprisingly, we were both virgins when we were married, and learned alot together, and enjoy all of sex’s benefits now as a married couple. That’s the way God intended it, and we’ve personally seen the benefits of living in that way. As Christians, of course, we should exhibit more self control than the world…but even the world recognizes a level of self control is necessary (otherwise addictions of all sorts would be accepted & welcomed).
I think every form of sexual sin or deviance has to do more with a failure to teach & emphasize self control than it does with how a girl or boy dresses. But, if we believe in the teachings of self-control, we must concede to the fact that it should permeate every area of our life…hobbies, food, the way we dress, etc. It’s not about denial of all that is pleasurable, it’s about enjoying those pleasures while still bearing the fruits of the Spirit. And I believe we can certainly enjoy the pleasures of sexuality while bearing those fruits…THAT is what we should be teaching our children (hopefully my husband and I succeed in that :) )
I really, really like this.
Thanks for this post, so much.
Can you imagine if things were flipped around?
Frinstance, lots of guys in church (at least in the conservative ones I grew up in) wear suits. I happen to be turned on by men in suits. If things were the other way around gender-wise, I would be able to tell men to stop wearing suits and have to wear overalls, because they were causing me to lust. Of course there’d be the poor dude who happened to look good even while wearing overalls, and well, I’d be able to shame him for being a slut, so that he’d have to wear baggier overalls because God gifted him with a fit body. And the poor guy would be wondering what’s wrong with him while I’d be smug in my self-righteousness.
It’s just as stupid and just as sinful.
Yeah, I think somewhere they missed the fact that women are sexual beings as well. And women are actually turned on by men and their bodies. God did create us that way. But because the church has said, “This is the way it is,” for so long we have such warped ideas about ourselves – our bodies and our sexuality – that many of us don’t know what’s right or wrong anymore. And we’re expected to bear the weight of not only our own personal temptations but then also those of the entire Christian male population?
Seriously?
Exactly. I can’t speak for every woman out there, but I can say with absolute certainty that I AM visually stimulated. I have a high libido, and I’m single, so yeah, it’s a struggle for me as much as for a man. It drives me nuts when people don’t recognize this factor or give either gender the right, healthy mindset.
I grew up in the church. One where shorts and t-shirts where acceptable, but definitely one where we were given the message that it was the responsibility of women to make sure men didn’t “stumble” by dress modestly.
When I was in my early 20s, shortly after getting engaged to my husband, a friend sat me down in a crowded coffee shop and proceeded to tell me that she felt my standards for myself had slipped, that my clothing was inappropriate, and furthermore, that men in the church (older men–my dad’s age), had been coming up to her to ask that she say something to me about my clothing. (For the record, the offending garments were spaghetti-strap tank tops, worn to casual gatherings on summer evenings. Hardly obscene, particularly on my small frame, to Somaticstrength’s point about different body types affecting whether something is “modest” or not.) I’ve never felt more humiliated than sitting there as she told me this in a loud enough voice that people were turning to look (I can only imagine what they thought when they turned and saw me, sitting in a turtleneck sweater and jeans).
I don’t really know what the answers are when it comes to modesty. Perhaps I was in the wrong. But the whole experience left a very sour taste in my mouth. And I do agree that there is something creepy and objectifying in some of the way the church handles the topic.
Thanks so much for this post! I lived for years with a youth group that enforced rules on modesty for women especially during the summer. And, just to add to your post, another reason why conversations about modesty make me frustrated is because of the linkages to violence against women. As a 16 year old, I remember sitting in my youth group while one of our female youth workers told a horrific story about being raped after going out at night wearing a spaghetti strapped dress to the club while she was in college. It’s really horrifying to think of the messages that this “testimony” taught me and the other young women in that room. She equated sexual violence to modesty in a way that was just to perverse and sad. Not to mention, my youth pastor and his wife completely stood behind her as she was speaking. The message was clear to us; this unspeakable act of violence was all her fault because she wasn’t dressed modestly enough. Such utter bullshit. I decided to do my thesis in grad school on women and body image (PDF Available Here: http://bit.ly/nkRHsv). Thankfully, through that work and many critical thoughts about that night, I finally feel free from the false ties this particular church made to modesty.
A lot of good points were made on this post, but I disagree with some of it. I would say that the undertone of modesty is not shame, it’s dignity. We don’t tell girls to dress modestly because their body is bad; we tell them to dress modestly because their body is so precious that they have to protect their dignity. Unfortunately, this isn’t the message that seems to get across to people, and girls are growing up thinking the Church is some archaic and oppressive force.
Sure it’s unfair that women have to dress better because men fall into temptation easier through visuals. Double standard, right?. I say too bad, dress better anyway. I’m not going to compromise my values and throw away my modest clothes to rebel against some double standard.
If it was about dignity then when a woman said, “What I’m wearing is dignified to me” everyone else would back off and say “okay” not “you’re causing men to stumble, cover up.”
And if men somehow naturally fall into temptation faster (and not, you know, just have a cultural backing them up to let them be sexist pigs with a lack of self-control) then they can just go to hell for their temptation, I don’t care.
There is a very fine line between precious and taboo.
And when a thing becomes taboo, we start wondering if the table legs need to be covered up too.
Nicely put, Christine.
The undertone of modesty SHOULD be dignity, which is self-regulated and none of anyone else’s business. Unfortunately, it’s not that way. I was taught modesty, and it was closely tied to self-respect and integrity. I will teach it to my daughters that way. But the term has been twisted and the waters muddied by connotations of shame and sexism.
Wow, thanks for this post. Especially agree with point 6 – the modesty police are objectifying women every bit as much as mainstream porn does, just in a different way. I wrote here (http://arewomenhuman.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/psa-this-celebrity-is-not-having-sex/) about the strange experience of watching a very attractive female abstinence speaker go on at length about how wonderful sex with her husband was going to be on their wedding night, and came to a similar conclusion as you do – that this is a kind of exhibitionism about female sexuality than ends up objectifying women while claiming to empower and respect women.
WORD.
(And that’s all I have to say about that.)
The problem isn’t that men might have naughty thoughts about women.
The problem is that we live in a culture that doesn’t treat women as equal. And the Christian subculture is decades behind the rest of us in promoting that equality.
Women get unequal pay for equal work.
Women are not usually encouraged to study math or science.
Women pay big economic penalties for being pregnant and raising babies.
Women end up in helping professions that are poorly paid.
Women encounter a glass ceiling every day.
These facts arise from the way we look at women–as less than us.
If we matured on these issues, we would have no trouble in being mature with our sexy thoughts.
Telling women that they need to be modest to “serve their brothers in Christ” reinforces the patriarchy that made the “modesty” rules.
The difficulty with this conversation is that (if you can’t deduce it from the comments here) modesty, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. While scripture advocates modesty, it does not define it. And I think the only way we are given to interpret it is through the golden-rule lens. We need to be responsible for what we wear. We need to be responsible for what we think. We cannot be responsible for what others wear or think. But we can show respect and love for others by trying to understand why they might be thinking and wearing the very things they are thinking and wearing.
Actually, really thoughtful here Matthew. Only one thing – don’t be misinformed about the Puritans. The credit you give them for prudish ways actually comes from Nathaniel Hawthorne’s portrayal of them in The Scarlet Letter. They did not wear only black and white; red was actually a favorite of Puritan women. Also, Puritan women were permitted to divorce their husbands for, of all things, sexual incompatibility! I’m not saying that they were starring in the Bud Light commercials of their day, but they were not as we, via Hawthorne, often view them. This I learned from my literature professor at our alma mater.
As an aside, someone who has been in my area of ministry much longer than I once gave me great insight into the area of modesty, or at least appropriate dress for certain situations. It came from his pastor, now deceased but nonetheless timely. “Do not advertise that which you are not selling.” This, of course, is greatly subjective, just as your blog suggests it should be. Not rules with inches and descriptions, but just a guiding premise and one that has been more helpful to me, in church ministry, than any other.
“Do not advertise that which you are not selling.”
If I am wearing a tank top, or spaghetti straps, or a strapless top, or a bikini, or even topless, I am not –advertising– anything.
It doesn’t mean I’m asking for or expecting anything.
Usually, it just means it’s hot as balls outside and I’d rather bare my shoulders and decolletage than walk around with pit stains. (And if I were @ryanqnorth, I would append that with a nice #heyladies)
This!!!!
Perhaps the questions you raise in this insightful post are best answered by intelligent, wise women who can see the patriarchal bias and imagine ways to overcome it. After our waves of feminism, the Slutwalks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk)seem to be a bold next move, demanding justice where it has been overlooked in the most extreme instance of rape. Rather than prosecuting the male aggressor, our culture often blames the female survivor. This move is especially timely when Nafissatou Diallo must turn to the media to have justice and not be blamed as a victim.
But men also have a responsibility in fighting the gender biases which encourage us to see women as objects. In youth group, I was taught a careful balance between appreciating a woman’s beauty and lusting after her. One is crediting God with a beautiful creation, the other is coveting that creation. Unfortunately, no one knew what this balance was and it was difficult to imagine it. Perhaps the best way for men to fight the objectification of women is to train ourselves to break from that objectification and consciously see women as full beings, mind, soul and body, and sisters in God. Such a view should go without saying; it should be our natural view, but it has been obscured in this fallen world. When we see women in this way, we can see the person past the clothes (or lack thereof). If a man is so distracted by a woman’s clothing that he cannot relate to her as a fellow human, then the fault is his for not having even a basic level of self-control.
Re: #6 – So I was reading this book recently (a Christian book, for women…) that devoted an entire chapter to telling readers that the sole reason we women should dress modestly is not to protect you boys’ integrity (and for a moment I was grateful that someone FINALLY said men are responsible for their own dirty thoughts), but rather, because the fall made us ashamed of our nakedness, and we ought to remain ashamed for the rest of our lives. Why? So we can truly appreciate the saving work of Christ. Whaaa? Yes. Because our physical nakedness and the shame we experience when unclothed is just like our spiritual nakedness before God, which Christ covers…with His blood.
So basically, we women are supposed to get dressed in blood.
I honestly don’t know what men are supposed to do, because modesty just doesn’t apply to you guys in the same way (if at all?).
Anyway, I think that’s total crap. I think most of this stuff is total crap.
Re: #3 – I’m also in agreement with you that the Church idolizes sex and sexuality as much as – if not more than – pornographers. The difference is they hold it up and say “It’s good, you should have it all the time as much as you possibly can and get fat on it!” and the Church holds it up, enshrined in gold and diamonds, and says “Never EVER touch this. Not until you’re married. And then, in that split second when the pastor says you’re married, go do it all day every day. God says so.” Either way, it’s idol worship.
Re: #7 – THIS is what makes me most insane. Modesty, for a woman, is now either about embracing shame (and where the hell is THAT in the Gospel??) or serving our brothers (who can and should take care of themselves). But I think it’s pretty simple: I dress modestly because a failure to do so reflects a lack of personal respect. I don’t respect myself enough to cover up; I don’t respect men enough to assume the best that they’re more interested in me than my boobs; I don’t respect people. It’s about cherishing sexuality and regarding it as something not to be spread around like dung. It’s about honoring the body as the conduit of life and spirituality and sexuality, and refusing to present it as any less than all of that.
Anyway. Enough of my little thoughts. Well said.
I have to admit that when I was reading your post, I literally went back in time to my fundamentalist christian school upbringing where I was told all of these very same things. I never really connected the dots for me about having endured those shame filled messages and what it was doing to me internally until I read your post and tears filled my eyes. I am beautiful and have no reason to cover every inch of my skin to help those helpless fellows who have no self control. I have been much more normal about my modesty standards the last few years but it has been a challenge for me to keep telling myself that I am okay in what I am wearing. I think it odd that I worry more about whether my clothes are modest enough than whether my nose piercing, tongue piercing, and multiple earrings will offend others. Even still, I know I dress very modestly considering societal standards…
Thank you for having the gumption to talk about this issue which is used to so oppress others, particularly women.
This is such an incredibly complex topic, Matthew. Here are some of my (disorganized) thoughts:
Modesty, like most other things in a Christian’s life, isn’t something that can or should be made into a set of rules. Yeah, it’s easy to say that I know I’m being a “modest and godly woman” because I dress a certain way, but the Bible doesn’t give us any clear rules on this topic. Instead, we are to walk with Jesus. I admit that it’s easier to have it all spelled out by someone else, but it’s really between me and God.
Now, some of the more practical things. I’m incredibly modest, but I breastfed both kids in public without problems – we live in rural Wisconsin. And, there actually was a problem one time – we were driving to North Carolina when my son was 2 weeks old and someone made a loud and very rude comment while I was breastfeeding my (completely covered) baby in the restaurant. Ugh. Breastfeeding is not a sexual act, so I was discreet and, except for that one incident, life was good.
I would argue that some amount of modesty on behalf of the men in our culture is good. I would never hand a beer to a known alcoholic, and I would not dress immodestly (or wouldn’t have when I was young) in front of a teenage boy. Yes, he needs to learn do deal with his own hormones, but I have a responsibility to the rest of society to not be needlessly aggravating. As the mom of a teenage boy, I prefer him to be around girls who are naturally modest (i.e. dress modestly, don’t “tease”, and just generally treat boys as people and not sex objects). And as the mom of a teenage girl, I hope I’ve been helping her to see that how she carries herself, in more than dress, says a lot to other people.
Ultimately, though, how someone dresses is between them and God. I think the Evangelical churches are spending far too much time on trying to help people manage their behavior instead of helping people meet Jesus and become closer to him. The rules are nice and neat, but life with Jesus is messy and complicated. It’s easy to set down all those rules, but that’s not how Jesus lived – and that’s not how we are to try to live. Yeah, it’s complicated. But worth it.
This is an issue worth discussing, but more to get us to see how modesty relates to our walk with Jesus (which entails loving other people) and less with rules and regulations (which will change with every passing whim.
Catherine
What is it with the south and breastfeeding? Did they miss the memo that the rest of us are doing it?
Too late for me as my kiddos are school-aged now. A traveling nurse-in may be in order. (in the winter. get a nice break from the snow and sub-zero temps)
Apparently the rest of us aren’t doing it…
According to a recent NYT article (which I can no longer get to because I’m past my monthly viewing limit…thanks for that, NYT…), only 14% of American women exclusively breastfeed past six months (a lot of babies start solids around then, that’s true, but many don’t have to and I won’t be starting mine then unless he wants to. I’ll keep him on just the free stuff as long as he’s happy with that!)
Even though the AAP recommends at least one year and the WHO recommends two. With all this crud going on about judgment, etc. it’s no surprise women give up breastfeeding so quickly (to say nothing of not good work environments, aggressive formula marketing, poor lactation consulting, etc. etc…)
And in Pittsburgh (where I live) I was glared at in a restaurant by a couple, who had kids with them. My son was a month old at the time and since it was really cold in the restaurant so I was covered by a blanket, and STILL they stared. Boo.
(Though now there is a woman here who is running a “Milk Truck” – like an ice cream truck but with a giant boob on top, to come to the ‘rescue’ when a woman faces harassment for public breastfeeding. She can either go into the truck or nurse outside of it, or there will be other women who will come and breastfeed with her, etc. etc. I could have used it that day!)
Wonder where they got their data, because the CDC report is different. I don’t know how to link from the iPhone, and when I tried 2 days ago on the computer the spam filter ate my post.
Go to http://www.cdc.gov
Search breastfeeding
Scroll down to data report card 2010
Now scroll down that article to: breastfeeding report card, outcome indicators to get the 2008 data by state.
U.S. national is 44% breastfeeding some. There I see the % you mention of exclusive is 14.8% at 6 months. OK, so there’s our numbers. Some people introduce cereal between 4-6 months with their doctor’s blessing. While not ideal, 44% still nursing at all is pretty good. If you compare with the 3 month data, seems to be where a lot of the exclusives drop off. Room for improvement, but a good start.
Catherine, I think you are my soul sister. I absolutely agree that there is an issue with “modesty” being dictated from the pulpit and becoming a checklist that we measure others against. However, throwing it out altogether is just as serious an error. You hit it on the head – modesty has to come from within a woman as an expression of respect and caring for herself and the people around her, and it has to be between a woman and God.
“…life with Jesus is messy and complicated.” Yes!!
Oops! I forgot something else I wanted to mention. A good friend of mine is a Worship Arts Director and she has a written policy about dress code for those who are on stage for any kind of worship leading. Her concern (and I think it’s appropriate) is that she needs to be helping people to worship and that clothing can be very distracting. So, skirts have to come to the knee (she says that the stage “shortens” the skirt by several inches), clothing should not be excessively clingy, etc. I think it’s a common-sense way to handle what could be a very touchy subject.
(And I remember the skirt-measuring from my Christian school, too. One year, they sent a note home because my skirt was too short right at the end of the school year. My mom was really mad to have to buy new uniforms that might not even fit the next year. So, I showed up at school with a uniform that was at mid-calf.)
Here’s a little personal anecdote that illustrates how complicated the whole modesty issue can be. Back in college I dated a guy who confessed to me that he had a boot fetish. So between Labor Day and Memorial Day his mind was pretty much scrambled eggs when he went to church. I also had an acquaintance who dated a guy who had a thing for (drum roll please)…skirts.
I was always very annoyed with the whole modesty debate (and still am) for the reasons people have outlined here. But my college days taught me that even if you want to strive for modesty, there wil be some guys who’ll be knocked silly by your judicious attempts at covering up. Whenever I think about that guy, I envision the pastor making an announcement: Ladies, please stop wearing boots. Wear sneakers instead. Then a few weeks later; ladies, apparently we have some brothers in Christ who have a sneaker fetish. Wear heels instead. Next week: wear crocs…no, wear sandals…no, go barefoot…oh, forget about it already!
Aren’t there some creepers who drive by fundamental Baptist colleges to get a look at some of those sexy young women in their baggy polo shirts, shapeless khaki skirts, and white Keds with socks? I’ve heard it happens!
Reading this, I felt sad that so many of you had been hurt in so many ways by the “counsel” of others, by the legalism, by the hurtful things. Back in the dark ages of the 70′s, I was fortunate that a very kind and gentle man and his wife sat our youth group down and talked about his struggles in a way that made us want to help, not that made us feel at fault or demeaned. He presented himself humbly as a “weaker brother,” who needed help. The girls weren’t given lists of what to or what not to wear; we just made our own decisions and encouraged each other to live our lives (including our clothes) in a way that wouldn’t hurt our brothers. And the boys were encouraged not to see girls as objects but as sisters in Christ. I still see this as a good thing and much needed in our day.
I haven’t read through all of the posts, but ummm, am I the only one who is thinks MPT’s pilgrim girl is not-so-modest? I mean, all of that cover-up and then 4-inch buckle stilettos? COME ON!
Is there anything more tempting than THAT?!?!
I’ve never been more amish in my life!!!
When I saw that photo, I wondered if any of the male readers would voice thoughts along these lines. ;)
Ok, I know this post isn’t really about breastfeeding, but the activist in me can’t help it… :)
Your right to breastfeed in public is legally protected in most (almost all) states, including Texas. About half the states also have a law protecting a breastfeeding woman from indecency laws, no matter how much skin she may show while breastfeeding. More details here: http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14389
The trouble is that our culture is way behind in this regard. Many, many people are uncomfortable with seeing women breastfeeding and will ask them to leave or cover up even though asking that is illegal. Even if they don’t say anything, they will give you lots of dirty looks.
But I strongly encourage all breastfeeding moms to learn your rights, because feeding your baby is much more important than someone else’s idea of modesty! And everyone else, if you see a mom breastfeeding, please give her a big encouraging smile so she knows that everyone isn’t staring at her and hating her for doing what’s right.
I’m happy to say that here in Georgia, no one has ever given me a hard time about breastfeeding anywhere–and I’ve done it everywhere! But I always act like it’s the most normal thing in the world, and if I see someone looking uncomfortable then I catch their eye and give them a big smile.
Sorry, I know this is kind of off topic, but for me it’s THE biggest way that my upbringing and ideas about modesty has impacted me in a negative way. And I’ve struggled with pretty much everything else MPT mentions–guilt and shame and dressing like a sack and struggling to be sexy once I was married. But it was the need to bare my breasts to feed my baby that made me realize how stupid the whole thing was and enabled me to break free of it. I dress pretty now (well, as pretty as a pregnant girl can, lol!) and I love sex and I don’t feel guilty about any of it. But realizing and embracing the PRIMARY purpose of breasts (sure, they’re sexual too, but that’s secondary) was really freeing to me in all of these areas.
Lisa– Thank you for taking time to look up that information. It looks like I was misinformed!!! Oops!
Glad to know that breast-feeding women are protected here in Texas. I think many women might be just as misinformed as I was about the laws here. In the future, I will try to speak up if the topic comes up. :D
I never thought to wonder about the legality of breast-feeding in public – well, not until there were some news stories a few years ago about some communities being uncomfortable about it. Of course, I live in Wisconsin now, where the mall in Appleton has a dedicated room for mom and nursing baby as well as family bathrooms. And, except for that one comment in North Carolina, I don’t know that anyone else has ever had issues with me breastfeeding my infants. I would agree, though, that my attitude that it’s normal probably contributed to the laissez-faire attitude about feeding my kids in public.
Excellent post! It drives me crazy that somehow women have become responsible for the thoughts of men. There are many reasons to wear different types of clothes, only a few of which are to attract sexual attention. Right now I’m wearing a tight citing tank top that shows my belly a bit if I lift my arms up- because its hot outside and I’m pregnant and my longer shirts are in the dirty clothes! I think the biggest testimony to the fact that men won’t be inexorably led into sin by seeing cleavage is that ere is no epidemic of rape on nude beaches in Europe. When you normalize body parts, rather than making them taboo, then its harder to lust after them.
I am having a daughter soon and this post got me thinking about how I am going to teach her about modesty. I think I’m going to generally use the What Not To Wear approach. On tha show when the hosts are trying to explain to a woman who dresses very sexually why she should dress more modestly they put into cultural terms. They explain that dressing like that sends a particular message based on our societal norms, and that message is that she has no self respect and others should not respect her either. Not once do they talk about sex.
I love that show. And the key here is that when they say “sexy” it doesn’t mean “baring all you’ve got,” it means “looking confident and happy in clothes that fit you.”
Thank you! I loved everything about this post. And a special thanks tot he shout-out for breastfeeding. ;)
Thank you so much for this post. I have always struggled with this element of Christianity as a female, and it’s not because I want to flaunt anything if you know what I mean. It’s because I want to wear a normal tank top and not worry what people think, or dress up and look beautiful for formal occasions, and not feel like I’m judged or looked down on because I look “too nice”.
Thank you so much for this post. I have always struggled with this element of Christianity as a female, and it’s not because I want to flaunt anything if you know what I mean. It’s because I want to wear a normal tank top and not worry what people think, or dress up and look beautiful for formal occasions, and not feel like I’m judged or looked down on because I look “too nice”.
Sorry to highjack this post a bit with breastfeeding issues, but I do think it’s all related. I was born and raised in Texas, but lived in San Diego when my first child was born. I had no trouble breastfeeding in SD in public. I always did it discreetly and except for the very old or very young, I don’t think anyone even noticed. I had moved back to Texas (Grapevine) before my second child was born. The one episode I mentioned trying to breastfeed in public was at a Starbucks, during the morning on a weekday. I am someone who considers breastfeeding a skill, and frankly, I have to focus and concentrate during the act to have a successful experience.
On this particular day, I was completely unable to concentrate on what I doing because I was getting so many surprised glares. The saddest part to me that it was almost exclusively women giving the dirty looks. The men would respectfully look away when they realized what was happening under the cover. It was the women who were so judgemental. I was so nervous with all the scowling that it took me 45 min to relax enough to have a let down. So I just figured it wasn’t worth it. If you can’t breastfeed during the day at Starbucks in a room full of women, where can you?
Read Lisa’s post up there. Smiling at a disapproving glare is the best way to deflect it. The social cue to smile back is stronger than continuing a scowl.
Check out the CDC’s report on breastfeeding stats per state. (tried to link, but spam ate the post) There are lots of nursing moms in Texas. Best way to get more out in public is to start doing it yourself.
This is THE most refreshing thing I’ve read about modesty…awesome! And from a man. I agree with you 100%. Thank you for saying it. I believe with all my heart that Christian women should be the most fashionable, best dressed on the planet. If they understand the freedom from religion that Christ gave us on the Cross, how much they are loved, how close God is to them, how gorgeous they are…a confidence without shame is the result.
As we’re all talking about this stuff…I have a question that comes out of my own need. I grew up as a 7th Day Adventist so RULES were priority. Been through all the modesty stuff mentioned here. Over the years Jesus has done an awesome job of freeing me from religion. In my early twenties, at university, getting married I discovered the power of sexual fantasy and reading sexy books (novels). BUT guilt. My body image shattered. In my 30s I met the Holy Spirit and started a journey that has consistently lead me away from religion but always closer to Jesus & the Cross & freedom. My question is this: how do Christian women nurture their sexuality for their husbands with so many mental restrictions? Sex for women starts in the mind. Yet I’m not “allowed” to read sexy novels (I’m NOT talking porn), we don’t talk about sex in detail, no movies with sex scenes, no fantasy etc etc you get the Christian no sorry “religious” picture. So as Im understanding the freedom I have in Christ, uprooting religiosity, I’m wondering about how Christian women are supposed to really love & enjoy sex with their husbands with no mental stimulation about sex first? My husband & I have great sex, getting better as we get older (married almost 20 years) BUT it’s not where it could be at all because I’m still bound by these “modest Christian” restrictions. Am I the only one? I’m thinking no…but this real stuff is not talked about in Church. We only have talks on how not be sexy. How about talks on HOW TO BE SEXY?!!
Check out http://www.addingzest.net. It’s a site for and by Christian women to help us learn how we can have satisfying sexual relations with our husbands. You might find some ideas on how to be a sexual being without being a prude. Good luck!
Nowhere in the Bible does it say no mental sexual stimulation. My decision has been that I will not invite anyone outside of my marriage into my sexual relationship with my husband – that means I avoid pornography and (am struggling to) avoid sexy novels because they implant outside sexual scenarios into my mind. Fantasizing about my husband? I feel perfect freedom to go to town on that one! Honestly, it’s a challenge to my creativity to have my own sexual mental life rather than buying or borrowing it from someone else. On the upside, it has also made me more creative, and much more present to what is actually going on in my own bed and my own body rather than fantasizing about being on a beach with some actor. It’s a challenge, but a rewarding one.
This spoke volumes with me. Growing up, my mom would have me wear clothes that were too big so boys wouldn’t pay attention to me. When I went to (private Christian) college, we had the girls chapels where we were told we need to watch how we dress around guys so we wouldn’t be a temptation (I remember those chapels being extremely boring!). Some people even insisted that if we were hugging a guy, we should only hug them from the side so our breasts wouldn’t press against thier bodies. Now that I’m in my mid-twenties, I go around wearing jeans and baggy shirts, and I get very suspicious/frightened when men pay attention to me. Sometimes I wish someone would’ve just sat me down and taught me healthy ways to interact with men instead of insisting that my body was a problem that men needed to be protected from.
LOL…I love this…mainly because you are right on the dot with this Matt…. I wonder what this lady thinks of jeggings or yoga pants :P
Has she not heard that sometimes more is less….that wearing more can cause a guys mind to wander more than if she is wearing less.
1. Great post! Kudos.
2. This post has more comments than the gay/lesbian posts. This points me to the idea that sexism in America is much more touchy-controversial than heterosexism – and Ill also point out that most queer-theorists postulate that American heterosexism/homophobia is simply an extension of sexism.
Think about it. Its accepted for a female to be a tomboy, but not nearly as much for a boy to behave like a girl. Its ‘good’ for the woman to act like a man, but awful for a boy to be feminine. Society deems lesbianism as super-erotic (well as long as they are lipstick lesbians), but gay men are disgusting.
3. This really saddens me. However, I feel like men are just as objectified as women, but female-objectification is much more open and out-loud than men. Male-objectification is unspoken and no one is allowed to talk about it. So in some ways, its very damaging to men since its not ok to talk about it – men arent supposed to be victimized whether they are or not. So I see is as anti-female is much open, louder, in your face – men is unspoken, unmentionable, subtle. Both are damaging and sad.
4. I also think that both sexes experience residual effects of from the persecution of the other.
This is a great topic and a great post. Im so glad someone is calling it like it is.
In my pentecostal church, women were not allowed to be on stage (whether it was for music, or ushering, or giving an announcement) if they had sleeveless attire. Women wearing sleeveless attire were the sluts lol. Men were not allowed to wear demin, even in our youth group, if you were leader or a musician you had to wear dress pants. Imagine why our youth group was soooo dinky and never grew.
I think a lot of these comments reveal some other things (not about commenters, but about an Evangelicalish subculture) that get ignored, too. The modesty lectures I got in youth group were always directed at women. When the guys and girls were broken up into groups for sex/modesty talks, women were basically portrayed (as another commenter pointed out) as non-sexual beings. The talks ignored that women are sexual beings and ignored that women may be visually stimulated.
Nini talked about how she finds men in suits attractive. So do I. But those talks also ignored that LGBT youth are in church, and want to be in church, and are sexual beings. Drew comments about heterosexism, but what about the heteronormativity? I don’t think that any of the swimmers in my youth group should’ve been required to cover up their amazing abs to protect me from lusting anymore than girls should’ve had to wear one pieces. I do think that mentioning the reality of anyone can be tempted by x, y, or z (and one that is a lot less heteronormative in general) is a conversation that needs to happen, though.
I don’t like a rules approach to modesty. The lectures I got in youth group wound up being really unhelpful on a lot of fronts largely because they were couched neither in reality nor in the already-not yet of God’s Kindom here and now. They were based on an Evangelical bubble where we did things or we didn’t (lots of focus on us), sex was bad unless you were married (and then it was going to be amazing as you and your new spouse fumbled through with no real idea what you were doing), and girls didn’t want sex (just boys did, which was why it was double bad for them to show skin: they didn’t really want advances, or if they did they weren’t being “good” Christian girls).
A beautiful woman is a beautiful woman is a beautiful woman. Regardless of what she’s wearing (or not).
As a heterosexual male, I like beautiful woman (beauty in my eye as the beholder, of course). As a married heterosexual male, I strive to entertain sexual thoughts only about my beautiful wife.
I’m not always successful. Sometimes, my eyes and mind wander. I know that’s sinful.
But if I see a beautiful woman, and my mind wanders, it’s not because of her clothing. It’s because something about my biology is attracted to her biology, whether she’s wearing scrubs or a bikini.
My attraction to her is not her fault (the hypothetical her I am attracted to). And it’s certainly not the fault of her attire.
And frankly, it’s not my fault that I have those types of attractions — we all do. It’s normal. We all have hormones and eyes, married or not.
It becomes my fault, and thus my sin, if and when I choose to entertain the attraction. And without any question, my choice to entertain the attraction or not is not in any way dependent on how much skin the woman is or isn’t showing at the time.
All that to say, the modesty question in American Christianity puts the emphasis in entirely the wrong place.
Instead of bashing the modesty passages over the heads of young women, we ought to be teaching boys and girls, men and women alike how to deal with attraction in healthy and productive ways, not destructive and sinful ones.
Matthew, thank you so much for this post. You are stating things that I have thought and worried over for years. But I’ve never been able to put them into words, because I process things verbally — and the church institution has always discouraged me from verbalizing them. And so, I have floundered in my beliefs, feeling ashamed and hemmed-in and not knowing why.
I feel like you’ve opened a window and let in fresh air to clear my thoughts. Thank you so much.
Also a thank-you to stephanie (comment #58284), Green Eggs and Ham (comment #58314), and brgulker (comment #59435) for sharing their thoughts. I appreciate the wisdom there.
I recently had the privilege to assist in a “Body Positive Fashion Show” as an extension of a celebration called the “Slut Walk” in my city. While I am at odds with a few of the choices made concerning the naming of the event and whatnot, the message was new and was yet another experience that shook me out of my conservative background. Many women were present to support the cause of working past victim blaming for sexual crimes committed against them for “dressing provocatively.” And after reading this entry, wow, the door does kinda swing both ways…man, critical thinking is hard, I can see why the church seems to ignore the need for it…there are so many labyrinths opened up when we reach passed the dogma of what we “should” and “shouldn’t” do…
Many good points have been raised. But I haven’t seen anyone point out the fact that many of us find an attractive woman’s face to be highly seductive and alluring. Why is it that we don’t require women with pretty faces to keep a veil over them as Paul commands in 1 Cor 11? She should do this whenever praying and since Paul says to “pray without ceasing” obviously there is no time at which she should not be wearing a veil.
Obviously any husband who doesn’t have his wife cover her face with a veil is insulting her by suggesting that her face just is too ugly for any man to find alluring!
Many Muslims are moving into our area and it is well known that they consider a woman’s face to be a sex organ. (Back to the argument of claiming that Clinton didn’t have sexual relations since so many don’t agree with the Muslim view that a woman’s face is a sex organ.)
Just as seeing any part of a woman might cause a man to desire her and thus commit adultery in his heart, we need to expand this logic into other areas. Seeing your neighbor’s property can cause you to desire it and thus be guilty of robbery in your heart. How dare your neighbor allow you to see his car, his house, or other desirable things that he has! It is immodest of him to have these things out in public where they can be seen by others!
Art theft is caused by museums putting art on display just as rape is caused by women being on display! The man who lusts for a woman or anything else that he shouldn’t isn’t responsible for taking thoughts captive!
Oh wait…… None of this is commanded… It is the traditions of men that have established all these fence laws. Take personal responsibility for where your eyes wander and stop blaming others for your evil thoughts. We don’t need to establish more laws beyond what Scripture already says. Churches have become a huge fashion show of who has the most money. Paul wrote to Timothy about the same thing. The rich women were showing off their beauty salon braided hair, their long flowing robes. This was making those women feel bad that had only a modest income who could only afford a modest amount of material. Paul said the rich women shouldn’t wear so much material and should dress more modestly so they wouldn’t be lording it over those of more modest means.
That is at least as sensible an interpretation as the claim that desire for something that doesn’t belong to a person is the responsibility of the other person to hide away.
I believe there are work and social context that it’s common sense for women to be more covered in the conservative way you suggested. For instance if working in a school, or youth in human service care and especially prisons a woman is asking for trouble and disrespect if her breasts are overtly visable. These are all settings I’ve worked in as a youth worker or social worker where a proportion of young or most older males are prone to be base levell in their reactions wether by hormones or situation or poor socialisation. Working with older client groups or going to church modest attire, neat grooming indicate respect for those one will encounter. Similarily various degrees of circumspect dress is advisable for work settings where a woman wants her conceptual contributions taken in more seriously. Though in some male female dynamiocs at a work setting if a woman wants to be more persuasive in getting an agenda through and has the looks suttle breaks from modesty are reasonable for a good cause.
I digress as to the need for casual everyday events that women need to hide their breasts. Women then can and ought to dress as they feel comfortable, or ,more attractive regardless of what degree of breasts or nipple shapes are obvious.Likewise as shorts or short dresses or swimwear go.Not all women have such perfect breasts or legs, especially across the age span.The more bits around in daily life the less extra exciting these aspects become. If a man is in the state to be reactive he’ll react to any part or any female that reminds him of what turns him on, generally briefly and forgotten.
The constant covering and insistance on modesty won’t eliminate the lust fantasy element, in fact it creates amplifying the desire for looking at what’s so hidden, over sexualising female body parts ending up with men more into porn as the secret outlet. Thats why the greatest porn consumption is noted amongst the most supposedly church going areas. So what if a few silly females are mistaken in actual deliberate flaunting and highlighting body parts for attention. Eventually they will find that attention to be limited to short term gain. Most of these will stop after building on the short term gain to be sensible if it was a deliberate means to gain a certain persons initial attrention or the ones without a plan find out after some time it’s not achieving anything worthwhile, but mostly negative outcomes.So it’s a phase that will end.The remaining ordinary women dressing as they please casually aren’t wasting their time worrying about the odd males potential response and ignore more overt signs as immature. Plus this lot do know when it’s necessary to to cover up for other situations. All of these body parts have functions as God designed them which are primarily practical and secondarily at best erotic by nature, though the erotic is greatly shaped by cultures.When women appropriately breastfeed in a public situation where it’s obvious the baby would need to be with the mother and there are no better places to take the infant to at the time, it’s very rare anyone is uncomfortable with this happening. Even without the baby under any blanket. There is not much to see with a hungry baby as the nipples in it’s mouth and it’s head obscures a lot of breast. Plus anyone unused to that can look elsewhere. People get grumpy about public breastfeeding when their are good more private options available and mum won’t go to give baby a preferred quiet feed for a short break, but rather keep up her socialising. The other situation is where it’s meant to be a relaxing evening venue for adults and children aren’t normally present, where both for the baby’s and other adults benefit the infant ought to be at home baby sat being fed expressed breastmilk. Not dragged around whimpering and crying to signal distress and hunger. It’s not the breast but the mother’s disorganised person being sent to the toilets.
If the writer and any other men or the couples having sex have issues with bodies and what they are meant to be capable of in healthy everyday life they need to seek counselling to get over their hang ups.If as a male in everyday normal life seeing a females bits of breast has a brief turn on, so be it, it’s normal as long as it’s not turned into a sick obsessive fantasy.
The writer is wrong in underestimating women’s capacity for visual responses to having erotic thoughts or reactions, though in normal women they will be fleeting not translated to a pursuit. Females are broader, many can even register other women in parts even when hetrosexual as well as males.Their are many women seeing a well muscled male, or one with a neat firm behind who think wow, he’d be neat in bed or some who even wonder about some desirable male of what’s in his shorts.The lesser visual reaction to men is due to their being unappealing, unless loved, when their body isn’t the best. Wheras some of the most impressive breasts can be on a chubby, imperfect rather plain females.
Your view of concealling breasts and the fact womens genitalia aren’t readily even visible to women getting changed together is what creates the harmful stupidity of cosmetic surgery. Both surgeries are a farce as they pertain to areas that aren’t fully readily visable. A good uplift, slightly padded bra would fix publc image and no one aside from the partner sees genetalia.They have found women and men when exposed to a wider array of real breasts and the rest don’t expect or need women to conform to myths of perfection advanced by media. The result is where women see a greater variety and men they partner with are aware of a greater variety eliminate cosmetic surgery realising variations are normal. The solution to healthy relationships is not to act like women in real life are potential temptresess, as its the mystifying which leads to worse temptations. Do stand up for respectable garb as a means of being able to show extra respect for those occasions and common sense in dress with unstable populations who are in rebellious with a readiness to see the basest things they can.